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    xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

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    roonie
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    xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by roonie on Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:58 am

    I might die before this gets done...lol. so...below is my build that , if you look at the initial date, its been a while. I am now considering changing to a more powerful prod. I need some input as to where to find a prod suitable for elk and moose hunting. I just would hate to hit one of these large animals and have it get away. Is bowtuff or powertuff an option? thanks in advance



    http://thearbalistguild.forumotion.com/t917-roonie-s-build-thoughts-opinions-welcome

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by c sitas on Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:50 pm

    Roonie; Both bowtuff and powertuff are for facing and backing  a hand made bow. In my mind they are one and the same . mostly similar materials, different names.
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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by kenh on Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:52 pm

    Bowtuff and Powertuff are components of a wood-glass composite bow.  They are basically the fiberglass layers on the back and belly of the bow.  Building a wood-glass composite crossbow prod is not a simple or inexpensive task.  With materials and experiments it will probably cost more than a steel prod.

    If you want an inexpensive heavy draw weight prod, the best choice is fiberglass chain link tension bar.  You can make a 250# prod for about $10 Canadian.  

    You can see my build here:  http://thearbalistguild.forumotion.com/t945-loose-laminate-pinlock-build?highlight=loose+laminate

    If you can't find the fiberglass chain link tension bars, drop me a note and I can get a 5 or 6 ft piece for you here and send it over the border in pieces cut to length.

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by roonie on Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:14 pm

    kenh wrote:Bowtuff and Powertuff are components of a wood-glass composite bow.  They are basically the fiberglass layers on the back and belly of the bow.  Building a wood-glass composite crossbow prod is not a simple or inexpensive task.  With materials and experiments it will probably cost more than a steel prod.

    If you want an inexpensive heavy draw weight prod, the best choice is fiberglass chain link tension bar.  You can make a 250# prod for about $10 Canadian.  

    You can see my build here:  http://thearbalistguild.forumotion.com/t945-loose-laminate-pinlock-build?highlight=loose+laminate

    If you can't find the fiberglass chain link tension bars, drop me a note and I can get a 5 or 6 ft piece for you here and send it over the border in pieces cut to length.
    Hey Kenh ...when you state.."fiberglass chain link tension bars"...do you mean that the item is for chain link fencing?
    also...did you weigh the xbow for draw weight or is 250 just an estimate? thanks so much
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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by kenh on Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:57 am

    Yes... these bars are woven vertically through the end of a length of fence, and the clamps that hold the fence to the post go around them to spread the tension and keep the fence straight, without wrinkles.  Many times a metal strip is used, but they also use a solid fiberglass bar about 3/4" wide and 1/4" or more thick.  

    If you look at my build, that is what I'm referring to.  Let's say that the 250#s is a SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess).  I hung the completed bow from the rafters of a garage and then hung my 215 lbs from a hook at the center of the prod, and I  was not enough weight to pull the string down 12" to cock the prod.

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by roonie on Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:22 am

    coolio...i have, up here in Canada only seen the bars used for fencing in metal...maybe i havent looked hard enough yet. Any idea what brand fencing you got it from? I wonder if fiberglassing the three bars together would help in any way both in strenghth and being more quiet with the shot. So just how does companies like excal, ten point, etc. get their prods to be so powerful yet simple in design? (SWAG)...i like that

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by c sitas on Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:07 am

    Also ,top bows for a boat cover have been used. Check some of the pro fence installer and the marina's
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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by kenh on Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:31 am

    Fiberglassing the laminations together will not increase strength or quietness.  It would just make it heavier in mass and more sluggish.  Why would you think a loose lam prod is "noisy"?  The laminations slide past each other maybe 1/8", there is no noise.   The Chinese used loose bamboo laminate bows more than 3000 years ago; it is a very tried and true technology.   I buy my tension bars from a general fencing supply store, not a particular brand of fencing.  There's no brand name on the bars.

    Those made-to-be-crossbow-prods are extruded/molded from a particular combination of resins and glass fibers.  Not something any old street craftsman can do.

    c.sitas is right; there are the fiberglass "top bows" used to make protective covers for boats.  They are, however, much more expensive -- $25 for a 6 ft bar rather than $5.  And, they are significantly weaker, requiring five or six laminate pieces rather than two or three to get the same draw weight.   They are wider -- 1.5" rather than 3/4";  but are also unfortunately usually dayglo orange or bright yellow rather than black.

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by c sitas on Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:18 am

    Roonie, your missing the boat here . With Ken's idea you can make your own bow. You can make what ever weight you think you can pull. You can do all with almost no tools or knowledge.These bows are not noisy . They can be wrapped or painted any decor you like. In my book ,it's  a win win deal.Just to say , there are several of the guys on this forum  using them.
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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by Geezer on Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:26 am

    Geezer here: Roonie, I think C Sitas is right. Go for the loose-laminate prod.  It will be cheap, you can do it yourself and lots of users are reporting good results.   Really, what have you got to lose?  If it doesn't work out, you can always invest in a pre-made prod from a recognized maker.  No risk-no glory!

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by roonie on Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:55 pm

    ok...im sold on the fiberglass idea. I just wish there was a way to keep it down to one layer only. Keep in mind my wishing is for a reason. I do not want a hunting xbow that is clunky or heavy to carry. I truck through the canadian forest and sometimes put on several miles. 
    Im building a xbow because at my age im ready to start hunting without a regular bow...bad shoulders and back. 
    Now....is it possible with this fiberglass, to make a two piece prod layed into a bracket pocket so less drag on rail. 
    Perhaps a person could back a single layer of fiberglass with a shorter metal car spring to gain more power???????????

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by c sitas on Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:51 pm

    Sounds like your only way out is to check out factory made stuff. When you do leave your wallet on the dresser. We've all heard of sticker shock, that's why we're building.You have a first class manufacturer right at your door step.

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by roonie on Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:31 pm

    yeah..no... i wont be doing that. or do you mean to buy just a prod from manufacture
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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by kenh on Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:49 pm

    "I do not want a hunting xbow that is clunky or heavy to carry."


    You certainly seem to have some strange ideas about how large and massive commercial crossbow prods, and crossbows are.  


    My entire crossbow masses just over a kilogram -- 2.3lbs.  The prod is less that a qurter of that mass.  The crossbow is 26" wide and 30" long.  That's 1/2 to 1/4 the mass of the commercially made crossbows that I was looking at the other day at Dick's Sporting Goods, and they had less than 200# draw weight.  

    If you want to add a car string you will be doubling, if not tripling the mass of the prod -- it might end up weighing as much as my whole bow.  Your other ideas are equally massive.

    I've said enough.   Buy a light draw commercial prod.  Or wait months to get a metal prod.  Or make your own wood-glass composite bow and get back to us in six months when you've spent $200 in materials trying to get one to work. Do what you wish. I've tried to help, but you obviously are not willing to listen or be open to new ideas and concepts.

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by roonie on Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:57 pm

    kenh wrote:Fiberglassing the laminations together will not increase strength or quietness.  It would just make it heavier in mass and more sluggish.  Why would you think a loose lam prod is "noisy"?  The laminations slide past each other maybe 1/8", there is no noise.   The Chinese used loose bamboo laminate bows more than 3000 years ago; it is a very tried and true technology.   I buy my tension bars from a general fencing supply store, not a particular brand of fencing.  There's no brand name on the bars.

    Those made-to-be-crossbow-prods are extruded/molded from a particular combination of resins and glass fibers.  Not something any old street craftsman can do.

    c.sitas is right; there are the fiberglass "top bows" used to make protective covers for boats.  They are, however, much more expensive -- $25 for a 6 ft bar rather than $5.  And, they are significantly weaker, requiring five or six laminate pieces rather than two or three to get the same draw weight.   They are wider -- 1.5" rather than 3/4";  but are also unfortunately usually dayglo orange or bright yellow rather than black.
    Your second sentence is what got me going on weight. When someone states this then, trust me, i listen . Ive trucked through enough forest..or bush is what we call it up here in igloo land, to know what happens to a bow after a walk in the forest. I can see a xbow being even more cumbersome due to two directional parts. Just trying to cover all the angles before the mistakes are made Kenh. Thanks so much for your input so far. If your out...your out i guess.

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by roonie on Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:10 pm

    so..how will i know if the fiberglass chain link tension bars are the same up here in canada as you have down there. Comon Ken im still your friend. You must understand im new here and the truth of the matter is ive been on a few forums and honestly some of the advice i get is wishy washy at best. Not all but some forums.
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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by kenh on Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:45 pm

    Well, you can't "know for certain" if Canadian and American fiberglass chainlink tension bars are identical or within 10% of each other, unless you can find manufacturers here and there and get their specifications sheet to compare.  I'd bet, however, that since chainlink fence is pretty universal in its construction standards, that fiberglass bars to hold it up would be made to pretty much the same standards here or there.

    Or you can just spend a couple bucks an buy a bar and try it.   I already said that if you can't find it there, I'll buy a bar here and send it up to you cut to the appropriate lengths.  Then you can Paypal me. 

    FWIW I don't have any trouble snaking my bow through the swamps and  jungle we have down here in Florida.  And I spent decades in the Rockies toting bows and firearms of various kinds through 'doghair' Ponderosa and other deep woods.

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by roonie on Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:29 pm

    i will call around tomorrow and if i find some i will post a pic of it and measurements and see how they compare. There has to be some between here and Florida Kenh. Man...i would never leave the Rockies but thats just me. Kenh, did you ever hunt elk in southern BC. Have relatives in the south and horses to get up the mountain but just cannot find the time to do it. Going on a moose hunt here in Saskatchewan very soon. Wanted to try having this done for this years hunting but not going to happen. My hunting partner of 20 yrs. has given me his guns and i have promised him i will shoot him a moose with his Husqvarna 1900. Sadly he will not be with us much longer. A moose with a DIY would be sweeeeet!! Anyone done it? Just heard a story today about a guy that was on his way home from elk hunting and stopped to let a small bull moose cross the hyway. Shut his lights of so the moose would go across. Turned his lights on only to see the moose jump up on the hood of his truck and demolish his hood, windsheild and roof. The rut is kickin in i guess

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by c sitas on Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:17 pm

    Where I'm located there are a lot of the locals that like the Excaliber, from  your back door Roonie. Pretty steep for me , I'm a shot an beer type.Cool rig though, if you have the heels.They average about 175#. That's not hard to get.Thing with the arrow ---or bolt ,not toooo light either,  just get it into the air in good shape,it'll do the rest all by itself, long as you don't smuck a tree. Having the machine is one thing, intimately knowing it is another. It takes practice ,and more practice ,things have to be automatic IF, your are going to succeed on a hunt . There is no time to think. The skinnyest of bucks can make a fool out you in seconds.I'm only 74,been at this all my life , I do know what I'm saying.

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by roonie on Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:38 pm

    yes automatic follow through. I shot targets for many years. You have to almost let the string go without knowing ...like it surprises you. Much like shooting a magnum rifle...you do not want to flinch. I think that is why having such a smooth trigger on a xbow is so important. You dont want to have to think about anything really. I probably had one of the worst finger releases in history when shooting a compound bow.

    Csitas ...are you saying that a prod from excaliber is able to be purchased alone?

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by c sitas on Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:06 am

    I am of the thought that you could purchase that BUT, I don't believe it would be of any use to you because, It's a two piece and you would have to have all the pieces that make up the riser mount for it.I was just thinking with all your wants and don't wants , maybe you'd be better off buying the whole thing.Look at the crossbowstore.com once.. Only reason I mention the excaliber is your import duty, it's terrible . That's the only one I know of made in your homeland.BTW, your not gonna drag any of them in the woods very far, the purchased ones are all way heavier than the homemade versions.

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by roonie on Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:10 am

    The whole idea of this build for me is DIY. I love building things and am very good at it. Believe it or not i was the first (that i know of) to build trail cams. Guess what...nobody wanted one. I had two very valuable books that read about the hunts etc. of theodore rosevelt. In those books they showed deer,wolves, etc. tripping their own picture and this was way back in the 40s. My idea grew from their. I only sold 5 of them. About a yr. after that camtracker came about. Anyway..im all about DIY and can tell you sometimes i shake my head at what some manufacturers do and how poorly designed they build things. Mindboggling really. I once helped a fourth yr. build a wheelchair ramp for his end of class thesis and i was astonished at how little he learned in four yrs. Is this why our bridges sometimes fail. So yes, there you go ..us DIYers can build a better xbow..lighter and maybe faster. Again ...if any of you have ever seen some of Robin Allens xbows and the accuracy of them you would wish he was still with us and want one. He was dedicated to xbows building and only xbow building. Ive been trying to contact some of his people to see if the tradition has been carried on but gotten know where so far.

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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by c sitas on Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:47 pm

    Ronnie, I'm not strictly crossbow but, I've been on whats left of MR. Allens web sight a lot. I copied  a couple of his trigger designs. His type of skill  level takes more attension than I'm capable of anymore.I still like to play machinist  though as I have a tabletop taig mill converted to cnc and a fairly large table router run with cnc. I'm a maker but scattered thin. Toooo many interests. Every once in a great while you see one of his bows up for sale. Since I've been here I've seen two. Both sold rather cheap.They are quite different than our style of hunting bow. I think his style of shooting limited him to 90#.
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    Re: xbow build.. trying to finish..where does the time go

    Post by Onager Lovac on Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:30 pm

    i haven't been a crossbow for a good time now, i've been a blowgun a handbow and lately i've been thinking about being a shotgun LOL  tongue.

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