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    New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

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    jake-owa
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    New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by jake-owa on Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:47 am

    I have recently moved from making simple wood self bows to making repeating crossbows. So far I have used wood prods and I like the combo of red oak with bamboo backing. I really want to try using fiberglass to either completely coat or laminate a prod. My question is this: do I need bowgrip 100 or can I use a simple fiberglass resin and cloth combo? Will standard resin crack?

    Here's a shots of my newest crossbow. I am sure it is a toy by the standards around here. Embarassed
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by paliden on Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:51 pm

    Welcome aboard, cool toy! i don't know if the standard resin will work or not, I've used it to make some interesting composite materials for knife handles, it is tough but i don't know about it for that purpose. i know a couple guys who make laminated bows and they suggest smooth-on.
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by Basilisk120 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:48 am

    First off. That is a cool looking bow. Smile
    Now back to the question at hand. Hmm I wish I had a better answer for you but, what exactly are you trying to do with the fiberglass and resin?
    A bamboo back oak prod could be strong enough on its own. I would think that adding fiberglass and resin over it would just add weight and possibly over power the oak belly. And I haven't heard of anyone wrapping a bow in fiberglass, not sure that would be very strong or the glass wouldn't crack along the center line.

    If your looking for a protective coating? Have you every heard of a Massey finish? It is a epoxy-acetone finish that is rubbed on. http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=003956 has some more details. But a search of the web should turn up more details on how to do it and different solvents to use.



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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by Pavise on Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:00 am

    With the utmost respect:
    Instead of second guessing the answers to everything, why don't you guys try going to Smooth-On's and Bingham's websites? All of what you are trying to short-cut is out there and even already on this 'site too, and was given freely by good men and women who discovered how to do things by doing their own homework. There is no need to reinvent the proverbial wheel either.
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by jake-owa on Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:52 pm

    Pavise wrote:With the utmost respect:
    Instead of second guessing the answers to everything, why don't you guys try going to Smooth-On's and Bingham's websites? All of what you are trying to short-cut is out there and even already on this 'site too, and was given freely by good men and women who discovered how to do things by doing their own homework. There is no need to reinvent the proverbial wheel either.
    Pavise
    No second guessing going on, I just heard about smooth on yesterday and I am glad to have heard it here.

    Thanks.
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by jake-owa on Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:00 pm

    basilisk120 wrote:First off. That is a cool looking bow. Smile
    Now back to the question at hand. Hmm I wish I had a better answer for you but, what exactly are you trying to do with the fiberglass and resin?
    A bamboo back oak prod could be strong enough on its own. I would think that adding fiberglass and resin over it would just add weight and possibly over power the oak belly. And I haven't heard of anyone wrapping a bow in fiberglass, not sure that would be very strong or the glass wouldn't crack along the center line.

    If your looking for a protective coating? Have you every heard of a Massey finish? It is a epoxy-acetone finish that is rubbed on. http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=003956 has some more details. But a search of the web should turn up more details on how to do it and different solvents to use.
    I haven't heard of that but I will check Massey out, thanks.

    I found out today, the hard way, that fiberglass doesn't like to stick to bamboo....at all. My stronger prod blew first pull. The bamboo pulled from the oak and snapped the glass, ka blop.

    I am now working on a larger single shot bow and ...strange as it may seem, a smaller repeater. I am just getting into working metals into my bows and I will be sure to post some pics, as silly as it may be, when I get them finished.
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by Basilisk120 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:36 pm

    What did you use to glue the bamboo to the oak? I have had issues gluing wood to wood with bowgrip 100 and it sounds like I wasn't the only one. It nice to hear from other people that the issue wasn't just me and what worked better for them. For wood to wood (Or maybe wood to boo) either Tightbond III or Urac 185 are easier to use and at least as strong. Urac 185 can be ordered off the web from Nelson Paints.

    For my next project I think I might try the Massey technique out. And can't wait to see pictures when you are finished.



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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by jake-owa on Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:45 pm

    basilisk120 wrote:What did you use to glue the bamboo to the oak? I have had issues gluing wood to wood with bowgrip 100 and it sounds like I wasn't the only one. It nice to hear from other people that the issue wasn't just me and what worked better for them. For wood to wood (Or maybe wood to boo) either Tightbond III or Urac 185 are easier to use and at least as strong. Urac 185 can be ordered off the web from Nelson Paints.

    For my next project I think I might try the Massey technique out. And can't wait to see pictures when you are finished.
    I just bought some tightbond III today, I am definitely going to try it and some hide glue. I used a golf shafting epoxy and some tight bond II previously. None fared very well. I was wondering about basic 3m resin sans glass. Seems like a good flexible epoxy.

    I am super happy with my mini chu ko nu, it's actually turning out to be a mini monster of a crossbow. I am trying two prods now, a hickory with glass and a bamboo tied prod. For the bow in the picture I broke the staves I was working on by wild experimentation with steaming and such but I have a nice tight grained piece of red oak I am going to start working with again tomorrow.

    I am not stopping until I die by crossbow bolt...or quarrel I guess.


    Last edited by jake-owa on Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by jake-owa on Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:54 pm


    The mini chu ko nu...and my messy bed haha.
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by Basilisk120 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:25 pm

    That looks cool, and a lot of fun. Mini Crossbow of DOOOOOOM



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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by jake-owa on Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:20 am

    It goes "pok pok pok" and you laugh until the poison kicks in. Laughing
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by testhero on Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:38 am

    Do you know any other name for the wood you call Red Oak or the genius of the tree as I have trouble thinking of any species I know as oak being good for making a bow.

    Nice crossbows

    The bow grip 100 was what my friend was unsucessfully making bamboo laminate bows with wonder if it contributed to their failures.
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by Basilisk120 on Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:37 am

    I believe he is talking about standard Red Oak or Quercus rubra. A decent bow wood, maybe not the strongest but cheap and available at least in the US. There are several good build alongs and tutorials on how to make a Red Oak pyramid or board bow so it is probably the most used wood for bow making among beginners. I have also started seeing cloth backed Red Oak bows being sold at Renaissance Festivals Suspect If I were a bit better bowyers that seems like a good racket to get in on.

    My first real attempt at bow making was from a Red Oak bow that I picked up at a local hardware store. It shot great till it broke, that was more my fault than anything inherent to the wood.

    Yeah Bow Grip 100 seems to be rather finicky. The mix has to be to just right (1:1) and mix up really well and since it has no gap filling properties the joint has to be perfect and lots of uniform pressure applied. The bow I used it on was a hickory backed Ipe English style longbow. The hickory backing delaminated while I was drawing it back. I was able to salvage it by using TBIII but it took a bit more of a set and changed the tiller slightly. Mad



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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by jake-owa on Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:11 am

    Yeah, I just know it as red oak. I picked a couple very straight grained pieces for my prods. I have one for the "large" Xbow that just got it's second layer of fiberglass. I like building these mini crossbows because I feel like I am working out the kinks for my inevitable larger projects to follow.
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by testhero on Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:23 am

    Thanks Basilisk once I started looking into northern red oak I have a much better idea of the bows you are making.
    Prototyping at a small scale is a realy good idea wish I had the patience to do any myself Jake-owa.
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by jake-owa on Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:31 am

    testhero wrote:Thanks Basilisk once I started looking into northern red oak I have a much better idea of the bows you are making.
    Prototyping at a small scale is a realy good idea wish I had the patience to do any myself Jake-owa.
    Yeah, having broken 6 prods so far I am very glad they were minis!
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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by Ivo on Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:29 am

    Hello jake-owa,

    I'm a little late on my welcomes, but as I see you're right at home here and the guys were cool to give you the warm welcome on the spot.

    Fiberglass resins and Epoxy are two different animals despite their misleading similarity of being composed of two parts... epoxy is a glue(adhesive), while Fg-Resin is technically a plastic. As Pavise mentioned there are many different kinds of each and manufacturers try to explain what their good for and why(spread sheets of chemical and physical properties get people puzzled and are usually done upon request).

    Epoxy from a hardware store is a "general use epoxy" and is quite brittle...technically a goop that hardens once mixed, other things mentioned are great though, havent tried Urac, but it is well respected amongst makers of laminated all-wood bows and furniture alike. Smile

    As for Fg-Resin...I didn't believe in it till I saw it with my own eyes...there are also different types of resin, but from the words of the master - a regular Fg-Resin can be used to press all-fiberglass limbs. A time consuming and somewhat impractical business for bigger projects, but perhaps you can try this for mini-repeaters: A regular Fg-Cloth from a hardware/auto store can be separated into strands, soaked in resin and then pressed into a form as pictured in the quick picture tutorial at the beginning of this topic>>> Pressing All-fiberglass crossbow limbs

    I know of one other Chinese repeater crossbow guy who used fiberglass to make his prod, pretty cool stuff, make shure to check out the pivoting prod mount Wink >>> Chinese Repeating Crossbow

    I've got to get back to work now, but I'll check in once in a while...I believe there were a few more new members that I might have missed, but have not forgotten them. Smile
    Great to have you all with us! cheers

    Ivo




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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by jake-owa on Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:42 am

    Awesome! Thanks for the link. I think I will be trying an all fiberglass prod, just for fun.

    This is all leading up to a large and hopefully innovative xbow design. Once I get the kinks worked out in mini-land.

    I am currently thinking of getting away from the repeaters. I love the rapid fire for fun but I really want to throw a bolt more than 30" before it begins flipping randomly in space. Embarassed

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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

    Post by 8fingers on Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:18 pm

    Urac 185 is good for wood/ bamboo bows, check 3 Rivers Archery, also check out Dean Torges video 'Hunting the Bamboo Backed Bow' for an easy way to form recurves / reflex deflex bows

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    Re: New crossbow lover in the house...could use a few pointers

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