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    Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

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    Mr SAM
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    Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Mr SAM on Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:30 am

    Good time of day! santa

    I Want to present to you a few 16-th century crossbow photos, which adorns our forum as the first sample of medieval crossbows :flower: (It also adorns the desktop of my computer - is one of my favorite king :queen: )



    Last edited by Mr SAM on Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Ivo on Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:14 am

    I'm crazy about this one too drunken

    Perhaps you can tell us more about it some time in the future, especially show us where the trigger is "REALLY" located on this type crossbow. bounce :affraid: lol!

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Mr SAM on Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:57 am

    Ivo wrote:...

    Perhaps you can tell us more about it some time in the future, especially show us where the trigger is "REALLY" located on this type crossbow. bounce :affraid: lol!

    No problem, sir! king
    Please! lol!



    As you can see the object, which earlier in the older crossbow was the trigger lever, it became a decorative detail.
    The new model trigger was similar to this in modern guns in the 16-th century German crossbow study


    Last edited by Mr SAM on Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total

    William Tell
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    Medieval Crossbow pictures

    Post by William Tell on Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:52 pm

    Hello !! and Greetings to all lovers of crossbows ( like me)

    Guys, I am no expert or anything. All I do is teach adults on how to make authentic functional medieval arms and armour. However here is my first result in the making of this crossbow ( pictures attached ) It is a rather heavy crossbow in fact it is practically impossible to cock it with bare hands. if anyone can please inform me on what draw weight and velocity it has would be greatly appreciated.

    Prod = spring steel. 29 inch long
    width at center = 1,7/8 inches = 4.8cm
    thickness of prod = 8/32inch = 6mm
    draw distance = 8inch= 20.4cm

    thank you

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Ivo on Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:29 am

    William Tell wrote:......here is my first result in the making of this crossbow ( pictures attached ) It is a rather heavy crossbow in fact it is practically impossible to cock it with bare hands. if anyone can please inform me on what draw weight and velocity it has would be greatly appreciated.

    Prod = spring steel. 29 inch long
    width at center = 1,7/8 inches = 4.8cm
    thickness of prod = 8/32inch = 6mm
    draw distance = 8inch= 20.4cm

    Hi Will,

    Welcome to the forum. Judging by the charts I saw on prod weights...it looks to be over 250lb for sure...if I'm not mistaken you've already mentioned about it being close to 300lb somewhere else. It shouldn't be too difficult to disassemble it and measure the draw weight

    Your pics didn't show up...hosting works a bit differently here...you get an image code that you paste anywhere in the message(comes in handy when long discussions are held)

    By the way about that calculator...here you go

    http://home.att.net/~sajackson/ke.html

    I believe there are a couple more online...thou a chronograph would help a lot better...did you try any archery clubs? they should have one suitable for arrows(sometimes chronys for guns can't read arrows properly). Good luck!

    handmade wrote:The best of old and new all hand made by file and saw..[img][/img]

    Mr. SAM is also having image posting issues...half of the world can see them...the other can't...in fact he himself can't see his OWN images. pale

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    Hi Ivo !

    Post by William Tell on Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:59 am

    Thank you for the info re: the draw weight, actually I did show it to a friend over here and he judged it to be somewhere around 250-300lb just as you told me.


    Last edited by Ivo on Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:20 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Trying to upload some pictures)

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Ivo on Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:15 am

    As promised promised I'm posting images from Metropolitan Museum of Art...I thank Mr SAM for encouraging me to go on this trip as I was also able to take my younger brother with me. The kid was thrilled to see all the amazingly beautiful weapons, armour, as well as other artifacts.







    This crossbow actually brought up a question when I showed it to MR SAM...we thought it was a lever action crossbow/wheel lock rifle hybrid ...a combination weapon in other words...BUT the lever that I think it's supposed to have does not appear to be of the "column" design where a lever rises out of the gap in the arrow rail and spans the bow...as you can see on the photos the arrow track does not have any guides or gaps in it...does any one have any ideas?



    Perhaps it was the column lever crossbow, but was later modified into a combination weapon leaving the looks of the lever but disallowing it's function. I'm really hoping there is some other explanation thou jocolor

    PS: The more I look at the drawing and comparing it to the crossbow...the more I think the lever wasn't for spanning the bow, but for loading the hammer of the rifle...and that there is no mistake that this is in fact a pellet crossbow...assuming that this is not the lever finger that we see in the drawing, but actually a clay ball or something of the sort loaded into a small cradle that is not present in the museums exposition.


    Last edited by Ivo on Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Ivo on Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:41 am

    Mr SAM wrote:Good time of day! santa

    Huray! Mr SAM is Back and his pictures are loading again!!! cheers cheers cheers

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Mr SAM on Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:32 am

    Ivo wrote:...
    This crossbow actually brought up a question when I showed it to MR SAM...we thought it was a lever action crossbow/wheel lock rifle hybrid ...a combination weapon in other words...BUT the lever that I think it's supposed to have does not appear to be of the "column" design where a finger copes out of the gap in the arrow rail and spans the bow...as you can see on the photos the arrow track does not have any guides or gaps in it...does any one have any ideas?
    ...

    Perhaps it was the column lever crossbow, but was later modified into a combination weapon leaving the looks of the lever but disallowing it's function. I'm really hoping there is some other explanation thou jocolor

    ... a small cradle that is not present in the museums exposition.

    You are right absolutely! Laughing Laughing Laughing

    All this shown clearly in this drawing from Bekhajms "The Weapon Encyclopedia". The column lever cocks simultaneously a bowstring and a wheellock.

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Mr SAM on Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:40 am

    Ivo wrote:
    Huray! Mr SAM is Back and his pictures are loading again!!! cheers cheers cheers

    Thank you, Ivo! lol!
    I am very Glad to see you all again too!!!! Very Happy

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Ivo on Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:59 am

    Thanks for the good open side view of the lever action crossbow gun...Which weapons encyclopedia did you find it in? I found this one and it sort of looks like what you mentioned...LINK

    Also speaking of those German crossbows with crazy triggers that are hanging above the crossbow gun... Very Happy



    Last edited by Ivo on Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:22 am; edited 4 times in total

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Ivo on Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:07 am




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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Zmeelink on Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:56 pm

    Ivo wrote:Which weapons encyclopedia did you find it in?

    Hi Ivo and Mr. SAM, glad to see you Smile Smile
    The book is W. Boeheim Handbuch der Waffenkunde. Das Waffenwesen in seiner historischen Entwicklung vom Beginn des Mittelalters bis zum Ende des 18 Jahrhunders


    Here you find it in Russian http://annals.xlegio.ru/evrope/behaym/behaym.htm


    Question to Mr. SAM: Does the lever of crossbow gun work as a loading mechanism for wheel lock only, and not use for spannig bowstring?

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Ivo on Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:42 pm

    Zmeelink wrote:
    Ivo wrote:Which weapons encyclopedia did you find it in?

    Here you find it in Russian http://annals.xlegio.ru/evrope/behaym/behaym.htm

    Thank you Zmeelink...very interesting and in my native language as well... cheers study

    Zmeelink wrote:Question to Mr. SAM: Does the lever of crossbow gun work as a loading mechanism for wheel lock only, and not use for spanning bowstring?


    I also got slightly confused on the part of "spanning" vs. "cocking"...[Edit] I first wrote some nonsense, but now after reading a bit on it I think I can formulate it a little better now.

    how I understud it... the first motion of the lever arm cocks the wheel lock hammer and aids in drawing of the bow by "partially" moving the string latch(nut) towards the carriage which is attached to the bowstring. With the lever still opened the bow is spanned with a goats foot lever. I expected a little more magic from this crossbow, but it turns out that sometimes the magical complexity is much simpler than we think. Smile

    I get my stuff from here:

    На рис. 486 представлено устройство баллестра с глубокой инкрустацией слоновой костью на ложе из грушевого дерева, а также принципиальная схема колесцового замка и (отчасти) натяжного механизма стального лука. При опускании рычага (F) спусковой механизм с орехом выдвигается до зацепления с штифтами тележки (А), в которой закреплена тетива (а). Рейкой (g) при этом взводится боевая пружина колесцового замка. Курок (d) с кремнем откинут вверх. Для выстрела давят на спусковой крючок (r), который освобождает тягу (p) с помощью рычага (k), соединенного с боевой пружиной, которая заставляет вращаться колесцо. Вне боевой обстановки ствол затыкался пробкой (n). [301]

    and to support the goats foot lever comment(right under the second picture):

    Рис. 487. Баллестр с рис. 486 в изометрической проекции, со взведенным курком и готовой к натяжению тетивы «козьей ногой».

    And the spanning of the bow is finished off with the lever locked back in place which pulls the trigger mechanism assembly back into it's seat. Thanks for the resources my friends, I begin to love this more and more with every minute I spend in your company!!! cheers study

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    The Crossbow-gun

    Post by Mr SAM on Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:46 am

    As m-r Iwo had been mentioned a Crossbow-gun theme, I would like to tell about that one interesting. study

    With the wheellock invention the fire-arms gain the increasing distribution across all Europe. It were the samples of a great skill quite often combined with other types of weapon – swords, axes, daggers, well and, certainly, crossbows. Fighting value of the majority of copies is doubtful, but the basic purpose of the combined weapon was not in fighting application - it has quickly turned in a status thing, an accessory of the mighty of this world. Owing to the uniqueness and target audience this weapon has usually been ornated.

    There is a crossbow-gun concerns such status things from the Bavarian National museum in Munich. The weapon belonged to Austrian duck Ferdinand I Gabsburg (1503-1564), the emperor of The Holy Roman Empire. It has been presented to him by wife Anna, sister of Hungarian-Czech king Louis II (Lajosh II Jagellonsky). A fire trunk and wheellock the top, a nut and a trench - from below are located from above. (Or on the contrary, depending on that than to consider this artefact first of all - a gun or crossbow).

    All metal parts of the weapon blued also are partially gilt. It is considered that its pistol type wheellock is oldest of all reached to us.

    It is dated 1521-1526. In this interval specify the arms decorating it (are available the monogram both Ferdinand Gabsburg, and Anna, their wedding has taken place in 1521, but among the arms on a trunk there is no Bohemia and Hungary which earths Ferdinand in 1526, after destruction of Lajosh II in fight at Mohache, has attached to the possession). On the museum tablet crossbow it is presented as Italian, however its doubtless similarity with bows from a Maksimilian I collection , up to a covering from a red varnish and the gilt ornament on a stock, allows to carry it to products from Aragon(Spain).



    I apologise for quality of photos and as a bonus I offer you my reconstruction drawing of this crossbowgun king


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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Ivo on Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:09 am

    Sorry about the crossbow-gun theme...I just got tangled in the excitement a bit and can't stop. I mentioned once(well actually more than once Smile ) that I want to build a hybrid crossbow gun one day and the fact that I don't have the experience or the machinery(not to mention time) to build something like this...The excitement only got bigger...that is my sickness shocked :glol:

    From examining the pictures I also agree that this weapon wasn't exactly comfortable. The foot stirup(foot loop) and the gun barrel are placed in such a way that the barrel would be in the way of your foot...the only way to cock this crossbow would probably be done in a very unnatural manner of placing the crossbow in reverse? What I mean is usually the trigger lever(bottom) is facing the shooter when the bow is spanned...but in this situation the nut(top) is facing the shooter and that what seems unnatural...unless of coarse this crossbow was spanned with some form of lever lever. Does this make sense? scratch drunken

    Thanks for the info Mr SAM...The pictures are looking good and have a soft feel to them...restored perhaps? Very Happy

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Mr SAM on Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:39 pm

    Ivo wrote:
    ...
    From examining the pictures I also agree that this weapon wasn't exactly comfortable. The foot stirup(foot loop) and the gun barrel are placed in such a way that the barrel would be in the way of your foot...the only way to cock this crossbow would probably be done in a very unnatural manner of placing the crossbow in reverse? What I mean is usually the trigger lever(bottom) is facing the shooter when the bow is spanned...but in this situation the nut(top) is facing the shooter and that what seems unnatural...unless of coarse this crossbow was spanned with some form of lever. Does this make sense?
    ...

    It's not absolutely so... At spanning of bowstring with the kranequin, crossbow hold for a stock whith nut side to yourself. Thus the stirrup is used not traditionally, and is faster for an emphasis to the knee or to the earth.

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Mr SAM on Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:16 pm

    It's well-known "Padre island bow", it is caught together with Spanish Galleon in the mid-seventies years of the 20st. Known enough fact, but more or less decent a photos are rarity. Here, perhaps, best that I could find:

    http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/coast/images/he4.html



    Them there actually 3 pieces, are more exact parts from 3 pieces. Those summit crossbows, with whom Cortez conquered Mexico study
    During lifetime Very Happy it looked here so:



    And here are some pictures in the style of "Retro" (Pay attention to the smallest of them - the horseman option) king :



    And especially gratitude thanks to William Tell for His Maltese crossbows photos:



    Last edited by Mr SAM on Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:48 pm; edited 5 times in total

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    Padre Island bow

    Post by Geezer on Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:45 pm

    Hey guys: Geezer here. In the photo of the Padre Island relics on display (At Corpus-Christi, Tex museum of Science and History) The complete bow, bolts and gafas all came from my shop. A friend made the gafas, I did the rest. Geezer.
    ps. Thanks to Wm. Tell for the pictures of the Maltese bows. Please note most of these bows are tapered from lock to head, and upper top of stock behind the lock is clearly gabled... higher in center, lower on edges. Incidentally, this feature is missing on the Padre Island bows. The relic in the best condition was not very well made... the lock is a bit off center, rivets are put in crooked, and based on radiographs, the nose-ring was originally put in crooked and later corrected. It looks like the bow might have come from a bin marked 'factory seconds', still its interesting to see what was acceptable for general munitions grade equipment. Geezer.

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    Authentic prods

    Post by balbi on Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:53 pm

    Hi there,
    Thanks for posting all the beautiful photos guys.
    I think the tapering of the prods in both depth and thickness is very elegant.
    I am I right in saying that no one offers this style commercially at the moment?
    I think Geezer wisely mentioned about how CAD equipped companies will do just about anything nowadays,
    but is that the only option?
    Could a blacksmith work with high carbon spring steel? Were the originals HCSS?

    Thanks
    Balbi

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Ivo on Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:18 pm

    balbi wrote:...I am I right in saying that no one offers this style commercially at the moment?
    I think Geezer wisely mentioned about how CAD equipped companies will do just about anything nowadays,
    but is that the only option?
    Could a blacksmith work with high carbon spring steel? Were the originals HCSS?...Balbi

    Hello Balbi,

    I don't mean to be rude, but please keep construction and material availability questions/discussions in the appropriate sections of the forum.

    Thank you,

    Ivo

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Ivo on Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:42 am

    An interesting photo I found when looking through online Britannica Encyclopedia...link


    What caught my attention was the way the rope of the windlass spanning device was crossing along the the stock...was that a normal and functional variation of rope placement or is it just another example of museum workers/photographers imagination? Very Happy

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    Re: Medieval Crossbows: Photos, Drawings, Diagrams

    Post by Mr SAM on Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:06 am

    Ivo wrote:An interesting photo I found when looking through online Britannica Encyclopedia...

    .............

    What caught my attention was the way the rope of the windlass spanning device was crossing along the the stock...was that a normal and functional variation of rope placement or is it just another example of museum workers/photographers imagination? Very Happy

    Ivo, you're right! lol!
    study This crossbow is very interesting in itself, but it is an example of absolute ignorance nagyadnym West Point Museum (United States Military Academy) staff. They believe that a French military crossbow 14th century. They are wrong. In fact, it is target Flemish crossbow, which dates from no earlier than the beginning of 17th century. With such incompetence is not surprising that the ropes are reversed and crossing along the the stock king
    "...just another example of museum workers/photographers imagination!..."
    The сords of the windlass spanning device should look like this:


    P.S. This type crossbow replica of my production you can see here: Very Happy

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    Medieval Close ups

    Post by William Tell on Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:18 pm

    Hi there guys. Here you might find these close ups of interest. original i6th century crossbows.

    Smile

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    Museum errors

    Post by Geezer on Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:45 am

    Geezer here, with a comment on museum errors. Though the great museums usually have
    'experts' on staff, it's hard for any curator to know everything. As crossbows go, I think most of those 'experts' have a copy of Payne-Gallwey's "The Crossbow"' on hand, and that's the limit of their knowledge. I have seen roller-nuts put in backwards in a couple of very big-name european museums... places where Somebody Oughta Know Better. Given that they can make such obvious mistakes, it's no surprise that they sometimes get date and provenance wrong.
    Sadly, these mistakes tend to propogate. A friend saw a crossbow in a small regional museum with the roller-nut in backwards. When he pointed it out to the curator, the guy referenced a crossbow in a Big Important Museum that had theirs in the same way. I've seen that one...it's wrong too. Sigh... Geezer.

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