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    Splitting the Stock

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    directdrive8
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    Splitting the Stock

    Post by directdrive8 on Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:32 am

    Hi, All: As a newbie to this forum, I may be asking a question that has been answered elsewhere. Please accept my apologies if that is the case. I plan to build a crossbow using a laminated wood/fiberglass prod. I've built a number of laminated longbows and recurves so understand the method. As for the stock, I've been wondering if anyone has cut the stock longitudinally on a table saw or bandsaw so that the cutouts for the tickler/trigger assembly and nut are more easily accessible? Once properly cut to shape, the halves could then be glued up and rejoined. Is this an idea that has been used previously or are there problems I haven't envisioned? My guess is that a method like the one described isn't traditional but would still work.
    On another topic, the axle for the roller nut seems always to ride on wood only. Has anyone used metal tubing as reinforcement for the axles to ride on?
    Thanks!
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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by Ivo on Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:08 pm

    Welcome to the forum directdrive8,

    Your guess is correct - Laminated stocks are legit and will work fine both for traditional and more modern stock designs.

    Axels are a static components and are normally peened in place with only the trigger parts rotating on them. Tubing can be a good idea in an enclosed trigger mech were axels are allowed to rotate...walls of the stock will keep them from sliding out.

    I kinda understand what you are talking about, as I've seen this method used in cast engine blocks using the larger surface area of the brass insert to transfer the load to the softer cast aluminum housing...is that what you had in mind?

    Ivo

    PS: Are you planing to glue the stock solid or keep it split (so it can be disassembled for maintenance)?




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    Post by Geezer on Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:30 pm

    The question concerned splitting stocks down the center to make internal parts easier to fashion and service, as well as axles for roller-locks.
    To answer the first: You can certainly build a medieval-style crossbow that way. It would solve some problems but raise others... mostly lining-up the parts when gluing, or providing locator pins if you wanna take it apart for service. I know of no medieval bows that worked this way, but the idea has possibilities.
    As for putting the roller on an axle, most medieval bows had no axle per-se, but a roller spinning in a 2/3 round socket. Sockets on stronger bows had the front and back sections lined with bone, antler, or ivory. Some very strong bows in late Renaissance, into the 19th century had an iron or steel roller-socket inlet into the stock for extra strength.
    The rounded German-style bows that feature a cord through the roller have a rather looser fitting socket. The trigger, fitting into the sear at the rear of the nut (roller) forces the roller into the form-fitting front of the socket. Since the rear of the socket is actually a bit loose, the cord keeps the nut from oscillating and hopping out of the socket on release. Note that it Doesn't actually bear any load when the bow is spanned, ready to shoot, but that it Does in fact prevent the nut from leaping out on release, or falling out when you're running around the woods with an unspanned piece. So you can shoot a bow of this type safely without the cord, but the nut might try to leap out and follow your bolt down range. Does that make sense? Geezer
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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by Ivo on Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:54 pm

    Geezer wrote:...cord through the roller...

    Like in Ulrich V bow for example...



    I've also thought about the alignment issue, but lets see that directdrive8 has in mind.

    Ivo




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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by directdrive8 on Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:10 pm

    Geezer: Thanks for the reply. So far as alignment is concerned, I had planned to drill holes through the stock prior to cutting it down the center. After inletting the stock for the roller nut and trigger assembly, I had planned on gluing the two halves back together and then pushing registry pins through the holes for exact alignment. I had never considered leaving the stock unglued but now that you mention it, that might be the way to go. So far as the cord is concerned, I understand how that works. What confuses me is the 2/3rds hole for the roller nut. What would that look like and why would they use it?

    Ivo: Thanks for the photo. You know, I'd seen that before but had
    forgotten about it. Why would they have used cord rather than a metal
    axle? Is there an advantage of one over the other?


    Last edited by Ivo on Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : combining posts)
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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by Basilisk120 on Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:30 pm

    http://thearbalistguild.forumotion.com/t180-my-medieval-arbalist-project
    That is a link to a crossbow Tinker was working on. I linked to it so you could see the 2/3 hole. He went with a inlaid lock assembly so it is different than what you where thinking of doing but I think it shows a mounted roller nut fairly well. I know Lightly has some pictures of how she mounts the roller nut.
    Why mount it like this instead of a solid metal axel? It would allow the roller nut to ground out on the center of the stock. Basically the string force on the roller nut would be transfered to the thick part of the body instead of the thinner side walls. And a metal axel would likely bend after repeated use (or possibly very quickly depending on the design/materials) resulting in poor performance.
    The Ulric V bow is a good example. I don't think the thin wall of the side of the crossbow would stand up to the heavy strain placed on them by a metal axel.

    Thanks for asking the question.



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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by Todd the archer on Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:11 pm

    I would like to add to this topic. I believe the nut needs to bear against the front of the socket and to bind there with the trigger holding it. Otherwise pressure against the trigger with a freely rotating nut would cause an even heavier pressure to release the nut. Think of it this way: If you are holding a rope that goes up and over a pulley and down to a weight, you have to hold the full weight to resist it moving down, but if the rope goes up over a tree branch the binding friction helps hold the weight in place. It may help to think the nut IS the axle and doesn't need another axle to hold the nut in place.
    Making the stock in 2 pieces (or even 3) is workable but probally not historically done that way that I've ever heard of. That does not mean you can't do it though. All ideas are welcome.

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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by directdrive8 on Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:49 pm

    Thanks to all who have answered my neophyte questions. I never realized the roller nut didn't rotate on an axle. The explanations have cleared that up for me. Thanks.
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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by Basilisk120 on Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:11 pm

    Glad to help and that a good question. I had always figured there was a axle in there as well before I started researching crossbows. And I hadn't really tried to figure out why there wasn't an axle till you asked. And Todd was there to fill in more of the details that I hadn't though of. Thanks Very Happy



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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by Ivo on Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:04 pm

    Good questions and great answers guys!

    Not a traditional example, but certainly a good one.

    One of early crossbows by Sergey(Phoenix) - a legend of the Russian crossbow forum. Enjoy.









    Here is the original entry >Link...some pictures are missing(only thumbnail) since the site is a bit old (action moved to the forum)

    In my build I did the stock in the similar fashion(that I haven't posted yet)...cool thing about it is - the rail can be made separate taking the load off the stock. Wink







    Wish I could post more, but this build has been dragging for some time as I encountered problems and/or made unscheduled design changes. Rolling Eyes

    Anyway, just another look at things. Smile

    Ivo




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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by mac on Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:46 pm

    directdrive8,

    If I were going to split a tiller and then reassemble it around the nut and its bearings, I would glue it back together *before* doing any of the shaping. That way, the reassembly is not as critical as it would be if the tiller were already shaped. It would also let you use clamps without worrying about marring anything.

    Mac


    Last edited by mac on Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by directdrive8 on Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:28 am

    Hi, Mac: Thanks for the advice. I agree completely and had planned to do as you suggest.

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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by 8fingers on Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:57 am

    I suggest you make your stock halves extra long, drill you alignment pin holes in the surplus wood and again where your roller nut would go. A permanent glue up might keep stock parts from warping if the wood you choose has the tendency.
    I am a new builder and trying to learn from my mistakes. this is the plan for my next try at stock making.
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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by mac on Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:12 am

    8,

    That's a clever idea, to put alignment pins in waste material. That way you can drill clean through both parts, knowing that you are going to cut that material away.
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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by directdrive8 on Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:24 am

    8fingers: Thanks for the idea. I may do that though I actually like the appearance of contrasting pins or dowels against the wood surface. Adds a bit of decoration if well thought out IMO.

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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by 8fingers on Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:54 pm

    I saw some clever inlay work where a shallow hole was drilled with a forstner bit, the hole plugged with a contrasting wood, then a slightly overlapping and larger hole, again plugged, etc and a small mother of pearl 'button'inserted at certain overlaps. Seems to me it was roughly a double diamond pattern.
    I was thinking a series of plugged holes on the stock of a SCA combat crossbow could be used as a sort of sight. elevate till walnut dot is at his head, miss, try rosewood dot, maybe use inlays that are same dia as 30" shield would appear at 25, 30, 35 yds.
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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by genesis on Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:46 am

    Laughing Found the roller nut discussion very interesting; could the string through the centre be put under a strong twist under loading the quarrell, & then after shooting return to its former position quickly, as if to be a simple quick return device as well as holding the roller nut in?
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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by Geezer on Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:40 am

    I have tried several ideas for returning the roller-nut to lock. Basic problem is: There's a fair amount of energy stored in a spinning roller. Any stop/return mechanism has to be designed to avoid wrecking itself or damaging the nut.
    After a few weeks practice, resetting is so effortless and automatic that it hardly seems worth the effort to come up with a system that will overcome the problems of dampening/harnessing all that spinning motion. Geezer
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    Re: Splitting the Stock

    Post by mac on Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:14 am

    Geezer wrote:
    After a few weeks practice, resetting is so effortless and automatic that it hardly seems worth the effort to come up with a system that will overcome the problems of dampening/harnessing all that spinning motion. Geezer

    Well said.

    Mac

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