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    plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

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    pacer
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    plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by pacer on Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:40 am

    Are there any plans with dimensions for an all wood pin type crossbow out there? I could wing it but it would be better if I had something to go by. Also I was reading the wiki on the pin method and it mentions a string attached to the pin that goes through the trigger. I didn't see any mention of how it is attached to the pin. Any help would be appreciated.

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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by Geezer on Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:35 am

    Having spent some time looking at the archaeological drawings of the Skane bow (pushpin and notch bow, found in Alm's "Survey of European Crossbows") The push-up peg is split at the bottom, inserted in a hole in the 'trigger' lever, and fixed with a wedge... much like an axe or hammer head. Downside: it comes out after a while.
    I made a bunch of SCA combat bows based on the Skane bow. People kept pulling the peg out of the trigger... How? By hanging the string BEHIND the pin, and releasing by pulling the trigger down. This is PRECISELY opposite the way the Skane bow is supposed to operate. Eventually, I went to a steel machine-screw push-pin and a very narrow string-notch. The head of the pin is actually wider than the notch, so it is IMPOSSIBLE for the shooter to hang the string behind the push-pin. That way, they can only operate the bow the right way, and I don't have a raft of helpless nitwits coming to me for repairs.
    Ahhh, you try and try to show them the right way, but there are always a few... like the Marines say, "ten percent never get the word." If you can keep it down to ten percent, that probably qualifies as good. Sigh.... Geezer

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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by pacer on Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:01 pm

    If I understand what you are saying then there isn't a string hooked from the lever/tickler to the pin at all. If you are doing the wedge in the pin wouldn't a tapered hole from the trigger to the string solve the problem of the pin falling out? I was thinking about making one like Trufflehound did here Wood crossbow I found a piece of cherry in the garage that isn't wide enough for a roller nut type plus I wanted to try my hand at an all wood prod.
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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by Geezer on Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:08 pm

    Yup: if you make the push-pin wider at the top than at the bottom, it won't fall out the bottom, and the wedge at the trigger will preven its falling out at the top. The original Skane pattern is Very Efficient in that regard... quite well thought-out. I would recommend you place the hole for the bridel-cord (rope that binds the prod in) a bit further back than trufflehound did. I try to get at least 3 inches of separation between the prod-socket and the bridle-hole. That gives you plenty of space to cinch-up the bridle after lashing it down. Otherwise, Trufflehound did a good job or realizing the Skane-bow. So why are you hanging' around here? Get to work! There's crossbows waiting to be birthed! Geezer.

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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by pacer on Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:29 pm

    Took your advise Geezer and got to work. I looked over my osage staves and couldn't bear to cut them. This is my first prod and would rather make mistakes with another wood. Looked over my hickory staves and started in. Does anybody else here make long bows and have a hard time cutting a prod length? I now have a bunch of little short pieces where I went. "This is too long, it looks like a kids bow." So I would saw off another piece from one end or the other to get a nice straight section. It is now three feet long. It's also now debarked and roughed out with a hatchet. Any recomendations on shape or width before I attack it with a draw knife? I imagine a flat self type would be too wimpy in a crossbow.
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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by Paulius on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:41 pm

    Last summer I have rough shaped a prod, with dimensions close to those mentioned in Alm's book (original Skane lockbow). It feels very stiff and I think it will simply break when I'll try to bend it on a tillering board. My prod is made of ash and is rectangular in crossection (maybe bad choice?). Looks more like a stick than a prod scratch

    I wonder how well those massive wooden bows worked in past, and how much poundage they had?
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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by stoneagebowyer on Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:29 pm

    I make wooden bows, and although I havent yet for a crossbow, I can undestand the frustration. Tillering a 3 foot bow is not going to be easy. Maybe start with a much longer bow and then progressively work down the length by reducing the length making it shorter with a saw as you tiller it? Of course, chop off the ends a few inches and you suddenly have a much more powerful, little bow. Smile

    A hint may be found in the way short bows are shot. You don't have a very long draw on a short bow such as a California paddle bow or other Native American short bows. And, a crossbow prod doesnt have a gigantic draw length, maybe 12" or so. Thinking of a crossbow prod as a hand bow can't be the answer in any case.

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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by 8fingers on Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:38 pm

    I have a piece of yew I have been looking at for a prod. I understand the hesitation at cutting a nice stave to prod length.
    I still like the formula of draw length X 2.2 for a bow length but I my nerve would probably fail pale . I would end up with about 6-8 inches in the middle that would still be rigid, and deliberately tillering in limb twist in the tips to account for the 'off center' angle the string pulls as the crossbow is cocked makes me squirm.
    Still, until its shot or broken, it is just a stick and the objective is still to get the bow / prod to bend equally. 28 working inches will give you a 12 inch draw an a little bit of fudge factor. Tiller to 10 inches, start stealing from the stiff middle until you get your draw length. Go slow, walk away often.

    And over here we have a better stave, as the sound of a mighty crack dies away. I'm fidgeting just thinking about it.
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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by Paulius on Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:44 am

    You are right, guys.
    It is only one way to make a good prod - go and try making it. If it breaks at some point, you can always (well if there is enough material) try to make a new one. You gain experience in any case, and that is how they did it in those old times. I don't think that bowmakers used lots of mathematics to make a bow. Maybe it should become natural feeling what is right and what just won't work. Smile

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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by pacer on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:46 am

    I make my bows by feel so I guess I'll do the same with the prod. If it stays nice outside this weekend, I'll have a good idea of how it will work out by Monday. Sorry to use bow terms but do you think I should have a bend through the handle or leave a none bending part in the middle? I would think a bend through the handle would loosen the prod with every shot.
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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by mac on Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:05 am

    pacer wrote: I would think a bend through the handle would loosen the prod with every shot.

    Pacer,

    The shapes of historical prods suggest that they "work" through their centers, at least to some extent.

    On the other hand, many modern metal prods (and pretty much all fiberglass prods) work entirely too much in their centers.

    The question of loosening of the bindings can be minimized by making the end of the tiller narrow. If you take a good honest look at the proportions of historical tillers, and compare them to the work of modern makers, you will see that almost everyone is making their tillers way too thick.

    I make my prods work through their entire lengths, but slightly less in their centers. I make my tillers as narrow as I dare (although they are still probably not as slim as the real ones). I have not had any problems with the bindings loosening from shooting.

    In this, as in all things, I say "Do like our ancestors did. They have it all worked out already".

    Mac


    Last edited by mac on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by stoneagebowyer on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:33 am

    You are right Mac, in the size of tillers we tend to make. I really hauled back and kept thinking thin, thin, thin as I made my last crossbow. The tiller proportions are much more elegant, and I could certainly have gone slimmer. Like Weight Watchers, maybe Smile It came out as a much more pleasing look.

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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by pacer on Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:37 pm

    Just to make sure we are all on the same page. A flat tiller, like an American Indian horse bow, with it just a little bit stiffer at the bindings?

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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by 8fingers on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:07 pm

    Think there are 2 definitions of tiller here. First refers to the 'stock' of the crossbow, second is the bend of the prod or bow.
    I think your idea of a hose bow is a good basis, allowing some limb tip twist as the bow is drawn to the nut. I've seen some pictures of a Chinese repeating crossbow that showed the twist quite clearly. Maybe someone on the forum can remember where to find them.
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    Post by Vidar Halvslak on Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:42 am

    Paulius wrote:Last summer I have rough shaped a prod, with dimensions close to those mentioned in Alm's book (original Skane lockbow). It feels very stiff and I think it will simply break when I'll try to bend it on a tillering board. My prod is made of ash and is rectangular in crossection (maybe bad choice?). Looks more like a stick than a prod scratch

    I wonder how well those massive wooden bows worked in past, and how much poundage they had?



    Hi Paulius!

    The bow don´t break if you keep the round shape of the natural ashstock you use for the bow. Just peel of the outer skin of the "stick" (Can´t fint the word Mad ) and the fibers keep intact.

    See our website for more pictures and inspiration regardin old woodencrossbows.
    http://armborst.forum24.se/armborst-about42.html
    Google translate works perfect or open the site with Google Crome Laughing
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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by Paulius on Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:10 pm

    Thank you, Vidar! I will definitely take a good look at your website. I think I'll find there really useful information (with help of translator) Very Happy
    Thanks again!

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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by pacer on Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:56 pm

    Thank's for posting that Vidar! Too cool for words!
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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by Vidar Halvslak on Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:07 am

    I´m happy to be able to help you out Smile

    Feel free to print out any picture or drawing.......
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    Re: plans for an all wood pin type crossbow?

    Post by stoneagebowyer on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:52 pm

    Beautiful drawings of the archeological finds, and some fine work there, too. Thanks from me as well, Vidar.

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