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    Nut from a pool que ball?

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    chaz
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    Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by chaz on Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:28 pm

    Just a thought, has anyone cut a roller nut out of pool que ball ? The material seems as if it would be tough enough. However being new and not experienced crossbow making just a thought maybe ..............
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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by AboMickey on Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:29 am

    Genius...

    I work with my grandpa putting pool tables together and moving them and such so this topic caught my eye.

    They are made out of hard plastic and if you've ever played the worlds second greatest indoor sport, you'd know that they can take a beating.

    I'll have to see if my grandpa has got any old cue balls laying around that he can't use anymore. The only issue I'm seeing is how to work on them. It's gonna be tough getting a little round ball in a vice to have the sides cut off. scratch scratch

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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by chaz on Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:53 am

    I would not put it in a vice. I would run a screw through a board into the side of the ball about 3/8 ths of an inch with the head of the screw flush with the board and using the board against the fence on the table saw and spacing the fence two diferent times I would make proper thickness slices off the que ball while at all times being careful an using caution! Of course this is what I would do, and not knowing anyone elses skills with power tools I cannot recommend this, After getting the thickness slice I wanted( with the slice properly anchored in a drill press vice) I would use a hole saw in a drill press and cut the size nut I wanted. etc. etc. Of course at this time I know nothibg about building a crossbow ....just have ideas accumillating. Adnittedly I know nothing thus far. However I would be intersted in a que ball, Best of luck!

    Chaz

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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by chaz on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:08 am

    Oh, I would use a 40 tooth or more carbide tip blade to run the afore mention through the saw very slowly since I dont know how a que ball will cut who knows it may explode. I would definetly wear eye protection, and of couse the safest way maybe to have someone else do it but a malfunction could be ruogh on them as well. Pardon the misspelled words in the previous. Mostly just thinking out loud most free info. is worth what you pay for it. But this is only me.

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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by chaz on Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:27 am

    It might be possible and maybe safer to jig the que ball up and cut it in a mechanicle hack saw to get a slice. I have done a fair amount of woodwork but nothing with a que ball. So there again one should use his own mental capacity as to what one does.
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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by stoneagebowyer on Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:46 am

    Would it be easier and safer to find out where billiards manufacturers get their raw material and fashion a nut from whatever that is?
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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by Geezer on Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:55 am

    I believe billiard manufacturers once used celluloid to make cue-balls. If that's still true, beware! The stuff is highly flammable... the same stuff that's in nitro-cellulose rifle-propellants and old-fashioned motion-picture film. That's why movie-house fires were so terrible back in the early 20th century. So if you're gonna cut up an old cue-ball for a nut, keep the work cool, and dump the shavings in your back-garden. Otherwise, "poof" you're in outer-space, just like an amateur astronaut!
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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by stoneagebowyer on Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:54 am

    Not long ago, I had a bunch of WWII era negatives I was copying, and those made me a bit nervous having around. And regarding how inflammable the stuff is, the first Nanuck of the North perished in a fire caused by smoking around the film, and the guy had to go back to the North Pole and re-shoot the entire documentary. Good thing he got there before Nanuck perished.

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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by chaz on Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:17 am

    Like I said at this point I know nothing about anything ,but I'm glad for the discussion !

    The best to all !

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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by mac on Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:33 am

    I'm a bit concerned about the inflammability issue as well. Years ago, I
    saw someone through a ping-pong ball (also celluloid, if I am not
    mistaken) into a fireplace. The amount of combustion that was produced
    by such a small mass of plastic was surprising.

    I also wonder
    if the material is suited to tensile loads. As a cue ball, all it ever
    sees is compressive loads, but the fingers of a nut must withstand
    tension and shear as well.

    In any case, I think that if one were
    to try to get a nut out of a billiard ball, it would be best to use a
    lathe. You are going to end up on the lathe anyways; you might as well
    start there. I think I would try gluing the ball to a wooden fixture
    mounted on a faceplate. Perhaps roughing up the surface of the back of
    the ball would give a better grip for the glue. I would cut the ball
    into a cylinder, and bore the center hole at the first chucking. I
    would also cut a decorative line or two into the exposed face, and
    perhaps another couple of lines around the cylindrical superfacies. I
    would then part the nut from the stock. I would then prepare another
    wooden fixture by boring a good cylindrical hole to receive the nut.
    The parted surface of the nut would be faced and decorated in this
    "friction chuck".

    If you do use a celluloid ball for stock, I
    hope you take light cuts and keep a fire extinguisher right there on the
    lathe bed so you can reach it "in a flash". I also advise that you
    stop the lathe frequently to remove the swarf. The ratio of
    surface-to-volume of the swarf will make it go up very vigorously if it
    should catch. Those who know me will know that I am not an alarmist,
    and try to address potential dangers in a rational way......but I am
    serious about the fire extinguisher.

    Mac
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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by Basilisk120 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:12 pm

    So after a quick look aorund. It apears that there are a few different materials being used, from Phenolic Resin to Polyester.

    The issue is that the nice (Read : expensive) pool balls are made of Phenolic Resin and thats what I would prefer to use. But I would like to know the details of what else is mixed in with the resin. If its Bakelite, like I suspect, a quick glance at the numbers makes it look acceptable, as in equal to or better than Delrin. Anouther engineer may jump in here and pint out if I'm wrong.



    The polyester balls may work to make roller nuts from, it would really depend on what else is mixed in there. Some of it has properties similiar to Delrin.



    This may be a better idea than I first thought, at least good enough to try out. I'll have to keep an eye open of a good deal on pool balls and give this a go unless someone else beats me to it.



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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by chaz on Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:14 pm

    Who can believe what one reads on the net, but a company Saluc Aramith in Belgium claims to have 80% of the world billiard ball market and claims they are made from phenolic resin since the '50's.

    Don't know what the pyro-technique or other properties are , they seem to advocate they are pretty tough, however there is probably more than one way to slice it ( carefully of course) just thinkin' out loud again as they say don't try this at home or without being a proffesional etc., etc........
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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by Basilisk120 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:35 pm

    I did look at the Saluc Aramith pool balls and they seem like the best thing to use (If you can get them at a good price). But I didn't know they were using phenolics since the 50's. Good to know.



    As an aside. Looks like there are various phenolic resin rods on Mcmaster-Carr. With shipping looks like a 1' x 1-3/8" rod would be around $30. So that might give you a reference when looking for billard balls.



    I wonder how this stuff is to work. Seems like it could be "flakey" and difficult to work with.

    Well add this to the project list.



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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by chaz on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:26 pm

    well, since the 50's is the way I understould what their website indicated to me seems we would be hard pressed to find one ofcelluliod or los it would most likely be a collectors iterm. However I would be leary of the phenolic resin rod for fear it would not have the same properties as the "well cooked billiard ball" go to their web site it is interesting, There again I'm brand new at crossbows and full of fascination and questions and very little knowledge and 'am looking forward to a build. Love the interaction of this web site, there is a wealth of info. and a great bunch of people to share it!
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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by mac on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:30 pm

    Phenolics, eh? Well, that's a lot less "exciting" then celluloid. You can put the fire extinguisher away now.

    I still wonder about the shear strength and the strength in tension. Can anyone find data on that?

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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by Geezer on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:32 pm

    Phenolic plastics? I believe ivory micarta is a phenolic. A friend made a roller-nut out of ivory micarta many years ago. It worked quite nicely for a 125 lb. prod. I don't know how it would handle 500 plus. Geezer
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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by mac on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:41 pm

    I've used the paper laminated "ivory" micarta to make nuts. The results were not so good as I had hoped. The material tended to delaminate along the paper layers. I ended up sending a few rods through from side to side in order to keep the nut together. That worked, but I felt dirty about it.

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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by mac on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:49 pm

    I have often wondered about "garolite" http://www.mcmaster.com/#phenolic-rods/=h4wjii

    It seems to be a phenolic, reenforced with glass or carbon fiber fabric. I wonder which way the reenforcing fabric goes in the the rods....?

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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by Basilisk120 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:58 pm

    mac wrote:I still wonder about the shear strength and the strength in tension. Can anyone find data on that?

    Mac

    Well, kinda. The thing is, as you may be well aware, phenolic resin is just that. The glue the holds it all togather and the exact properties depend on the exact resin used and the filler.



    So doing a search for "phenolic" on my favorite secret site for all thngs Material Property related (http://www.matweb.com/index.aspx) return 15 pages of different materials.



    Looking at a ransom selection of phenolics: Ulitmate tensile strength 5500psi to 11,400psi. though 6000-7000 looked average. But that was by no means a definative look at phenolics.

    There was only one product that listed shear strength scratch and now I can't find it. If I get some time I'll try to find out how to calculate shear strength.



    So thats why I like the idea of getting the phenolic rod. I know what I'm getting and have a better idea of the properties. Whidh are likely different than the billiards ball but that may not be a bad thing. Laughing



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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by Basilisk120 on Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:28 pm

    mac wrote:I have often wondered about "garolite" http://www.mcmaster.com/#phenolic-rods/=h4wjii

    It seems to be a phenolic, reenforced with glass or carbon fiber fabric. I wonder which way the reenforcing fabric goes in the the rods....?

    Mac

    I was looking at that exact same stuff. But you bring up a good questions about the lay up. hmm off to learn new things....

    Grarolite is a phenolic that is reenforced with paper, linen or glass, depending on the grade. Now as to which way the layers go. I found one reference to the tubes being made by wrapping the fiber and adding the phenolic then applying pressure. Not sure if the same applies to solid tubes (better known as rods Razz)
    The picture here http://www.plasticsupplynm.com/phenolic_rod.asp here makes it look like wrapped layers, or course could be a machining artifact as well.

    Seems like the G10 (Glass filled) is the most commonly used, found reference to it being used in RC car/truck chassis to hobby rockets. And some machinists complaining that it chews up there tools.

    One last thing before I go. I think we use a version of this at work. If so, I like the product its strong and solid even with shapes that cut across the layers. Well does start to delaminate at high temps but I don't think most people will be using there crossbow at temps over 900°F.

    Now that I have bored you all I am going to go get dinner. Razz Laughing



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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by AboMickey on Tue May 29, 2012 5:07 pm

    So I was finally able to grab some of those pool balls.

    here is what I came up with...

    I used a hole saw to drill out a cylinder from the ball.



    Then used my angle grinder to shape a roller nut.







    So there you have it.

    The material was really wierd to work with and it's not soild white. I think it's plastic but it didn't melt when it got hot. The dust from the drilling was very very fine, like powder. It seems like it will hold up fairly well.

    It'd be cool to make a medieval style crossbow out of solid oak with pool ball inlays. unfortunately I'm a few balls short of a full set. Well, that's what people say anyway, haha.



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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by chaz on Tue May 29, 2012 6:26 pm

    Abo,

    BRAVO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOUNG MAN !!!!!!!!!!!!

    YOU ARE WAY AHEAD OF ME ! And it didn't blow up ! Now you're onto another build !

    Chaz
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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by Basilisk120 on Tue May 29, 2012 11:17 pm

    Wow that looks really good. Looks like the material has some promise.



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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by Rogue Element on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:09 pm

    And........you could use the remains to make a thumb ring for conventional archery?
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    Re: Nut from a pool que ball?

    Post by prodedone on Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:09 pm

    I think they sell it in rods to, but dont know what the cost would be.

    http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/525973980/phenolic_resin_rod.html

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