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    Post by hullutiedemies on Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:56 pm

    Just thought some people here might be interested about -

    Something I've been building and playing with recently
    Paleo-legal compound J_kuva0207_127

    Paleo-legal compound Kuva0238_859

    Paleo-legal compound Kuva0237_682

    A compound cross-bow done according to so called "paleo-legal" or "abo-legal" rules.
    All wood. No glue , no metal.
    Cables and string natural fiber - flax with cotton serving.
    Juniper limbs , birch tiller, hawthorn cam levers.
    All relevant shapes in wooden parts are designed in a way that could be reproduced using mesolithic tools- splitting,drilling,grinding,chiseling.

    Draw weight and length is easily adjustable. For testing I've been mostly using 46 kg with 185mm stroke (~100#/7").

    I have not had a chance to chrono this, but trajectory and penetration tests make it look reasonably fast for something made from backyard pruning waste.
    Throws 0,7 g (11gr) piece of bbq stick appx couple hundred m/s (600-700fps) - that is 700 fps for 10 pounds per grain or so.

    Trigger is Indo-Chinese style notch and lever.

    Fun toy. Very air gun like ballistics.
    Still a bit under construction. I have been testing various sight arrangements and other accessories.


    Last edited by Nerd Flintstone on Wed May 28, 2014 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed image links)
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    Post by stoneagebowyer on Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:11 am

    Now this is just plain cool! Thanks for posting. Can you give us some rough dimensions? How hard or easy is it to span? It looks like it would be an ideal survival weapon, far easier to make with just simple or even improvised stone tools (splitting a river cobble for instance), then even a quick sapling bow. I can see making one of these with say salvaged materials from from bombed out city or after a massive man made or natural disaster. Ever think of making one with more refined components? I do like the all paleo approach and philosophy, though.

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    Post by Todd the archer on Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:10 pm

    I like it!

    Don't think it shoots 700 fps though. It certainly does look like it has potential.



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    Post by hullutiedemies on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:51 am

    stoneagebowyer wrote: Can you give us some rough dimensions?
    Limbs 25x18mm mid limb.
    Prod length 52 cm front
    47 cm rear
    Arms 10cm long 8x22 mm middle, 5x20mm tips - tapering edges.

    String length can be varied , but 42 cm for 105#.
    A bit longer 45 cm string 80# weight seems to be more efficient with ultra-light bolts.



    How hard or easy is it to span?

    Just step on the rear bow and pull off the front bow.
    Paleo-legal compound Kuva0230_203
    Assembly and dissassembly goes in couple seconds.



    It looks like it would be an ideal survival weapon, far easier to make

    Second easiest Wink
    Paleo-legal compound J_2jous1krt
    String tied to simple knotted cables allows measurable power stroke with practically zero limb movement. Meaning prod can be made of very low quality material as they don't need to bent much. As a bonus comes good mass efficiency and high bolt velocity.


    Ever think of making one with more refined components?

    Sure. This is not the first one.
    Just the first with nothing new. And with decent ergonomics.
    First prototype
    Paleo-legal compound J_kaks2
    was published January 2004 in Paleoplanet or Primitive Archer forum. That one and all other previous ones had some untrained features wich did not work as well as they could.


    The next one will have something new .
    A separate modular prod unit. Just plain block of wood between the bows. This should allow more freedom designin the "user interface".

    Limbs could be made faster with longer power stroke. This would put less strain on the cables and throwing arms allowing them to be lighter.

    This latest unit here has calculated dry-fire speed ca. 250/ms or bit less. And this design is intended for sport shooting in camping environment. It is optimized for durability,ease of use and transport - not speed or power.

    If the effective inertia per stored energy can be sqeezed to quarter of what this has( technically feasible), the dry-fire speed can go up to 450-500m/s. Allowing practical projectile speed of mach 1.1 or so. -We don't need a chrono to hear that.


    And one nice feature about this arm-cable system: This can be safely dry fired. The throwing arms have enough mass to absorb practically all energy from limbs and cable. They are not fixed to the cables, only hooked there. So if there is too much energy left after bolt the arms and string simply fall off.


    Last edited by hullutiedemies on Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed imagelink)
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    Post by hullutiedemies on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:02 am

    Some of the bolts used .
    Paleo-legal compound J_vasamat2012
    From left
    Heavy Birch shaft , lead filled paper tube blunt used for comparison during initial testing.
    7cm bamboo stick , glued air-gun pellet point plastic strawer vanes.
    Bamboo skewers with masking tape vanes.
    25cm 2mm diameter,
    30cm 3mm dia,
    30cm 4mm,
    30cm 3mm shaft with glued paper reinforcement.

    4 target bolts with blunt paper mache points for actual use.
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    Post by stoneagebowyer on Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:40 am

    Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Good of you to do that. I may have to put something like this together for my annual stone age skills celebration this coming October. I'll let you know how that comes out, if I can find the time to make something like this.

    All the best,

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    Post by hullutiedemies on Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:25 am

    Some test shooting results.

    6 bolt group , about 40 meter distance
    Paleo-legal compound Kasa35m
    Paper cup is 5cm diameter.
    Accuracy is adequate, keeping in mind that this is basically a pistol without proper sights. Shooting instinctive "from the hip" sort of.


    some idea about the speed:
    Paleo-legal compound Osuma_155
    Right 0,9 gram bolt with 0,5g air-gun pellet point completely buried into wood.
    Left a control shot taken with regular air-rifle doing the usual 150-170 m/s. Similar pellet sticking out over half of its length.

    The crossbow made a cavity 10-20% larger, indicating 100-120% more kinetic energy, with just 80% more mass.
    This indicates the bolt would have been maybe 10% faster than my old air rifle. 160-190 m/s or so.

    50 m hit
    Paleo-legal compound Osuma50
    A 1,9 gram bamboo skewer arrow went over target and hit a small light dry pine branch hanging from a bush.


    Range testing:
    0,7 gram dart launched 2 meter high, 0 degrees over calm water along beachline ditched 85 meters away -> mean velocity over 130 m/s.

    5 gram bolt ~7 degree elevation 120 m.
    12 gram arrow 60 degrees - 150 m.
    ( I had only 200 m clear field for testing - had to limit the range )
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    Post by mac on Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:06 am

    Nerd,

    That is impressive palio-engeneering. Did you invent the toggle-and-two-bow idea? Its shear genius.

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    Post by hullutiedemies on Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:38 am

    The basic lay-out is sort of a hybrid between Ming Chinese double crossbow and medieval European "cube springald".

    The idea to use levers to twist cables is probably my own. At least I came up with it myself while trying to figure out how the Chinese multi-bow compounds were rigged. And how to build a reliable compound bow without precision manufactured metal parts.
    But it is inspired by some late medieval siege gadgets.
    A documented case that used allmost same approach is a Leonardo da Vinci designed "clokwork catapult" .
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    Post by mac on Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:17 pm

    Nerd Flintstone wrote:
    A documented case that used allmost same approach is a Leonardo da Vinci designed "clokwork catapult" .

    I am unable to bring that one to mind. Have you got a pic, or a link to one?

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    Post by hullutiedemies on Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:06 pm

    mac wrote:
    Nerd Flintstone wrote:
    A documented case that used allmost same approach is a Leonardo da Vinci designed "clokwork catapult" .

    I am unable to bring that one to mind. Have you got a pic, or a link to one?

    Mac

    Here is a model kit
    http://www.italeri.com/scheda.asp?idProdotto=1983&idCategoria=16&idSottocategoria=0

    Paleo-legal compound 31051
    http://www.wonderlandmodels.com/products/italeri-leonardo-da-vinci-catapult/


    I remeber seeing somebody build a full size one a while ago.
    Possibly in thehurl.org .
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    Post by hullutiedemies on Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:10 am

    I guess we can call this one finished.

    I wrapped the cables and stirrup rope with boiled birch bark, Siberian style.
    Paleo-legal compound Kuva0324_137

    There is now also a tacticool sinister looking detachable high tech assault commando tactical buttstock system feature.
    Paleo-legal compound Kuva0326_102
    As comrade Kalashnikov says "everything good is simple". Believe or not - It actually took me several months to develop this. I had thought about a folding butt since the start. But the first prototypes were much more complicated, with cheeck-plates, integrated quiviers etc rubbish. In the end a stick is all it takes.

    An adjustable sight system
    Paleo-legal compound Tahtain_106

    Rear sight plugs a hole filled with rough sand. Amount of sand can be changed to adjust elevation.
    Bark tube is shading a bead. The bead is a peg wedged in a larger hole. Changing position of the wedge adjusts horizontal aim.

    The diopter holes have enough fresnel to fix my -2 vision so I can aim this without glasses. Wich goes with the paleo-philosophy.


    Last edited by hullutiedemies on Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:18 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed broken links)
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    Post by kenh on Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:33 am

    After all that experimentation, have you come up with any rough and ready design parameters such as length of toggles to the length of the prods or tiller, optimum toggle hanging distance, centered or off center toggle hanging, etc?

    The last one you posted, on Jan 19, looks almost "square" from the top, with equal size prods, and the uncocked toggles and and cables forming nearly straight lines. Any more insights?
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    Post by hullutiedemies on Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:41 am

    kenh wrote:After all that experimentation, have you come up with any rough and ready design parameters


    Paleo-legal compound Kaavio10


    c - the longer the better,
    at least c > 2b - to get enought clearance to prevent moving parts hitting each other

    b < x if long draw is desired - othervise arbitary ,
    but x:b ~ 2 has proven practical

    x:y - arbitary - same effect to stack and accuracy as with any bow

    b:a - arbitary, but such that desired draw length x is achieved without exeeding safe tip movement a.

    Forward bow should be slightly stronger than rear bow for equal tip movement. Exact ratio depends on other parameters. Equal bow-tip movement is optimal for efficiency , but othervise not necessary.
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    Post by kenh on Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:55 am

    Fabulous! Nicely summarized, Nerd, and your efforts are appreciated. One of these is definitely on my Build List.
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    Post by Gnome on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:55 pm

    Nerd I have to admit that I didn't really get what you were going for with this until recently, this project is really cool! A long time back I played a computer game called "Clive Barker's Undying," and there was a section in it where you fought brutish proto-humans that used complicated, rigged contraptions to launch small spears at you. I thought it was a silly idea at the time but you've really changed my mind. Do you plan on making any bolts with knapped flint points?
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    Post by hullutiedemies on Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:33 am

    Quartz michrolithes would be more suitable native material for the neighbourhood.
    Anyway, at close range I have poked holes to soup tins with those paper tipped bolts. So even fire-hardened sharpened wood seems like over kill.
    When snow is gone, i have to try some round pebbles for bolt tips. Sort of stabilized bullets.
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    Post by actionbow on Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:27 am

    I would have to see chrony shots to believe the arrow speeds you are claiming.

    Very cool project, original and inventive. Now lets see a high tech version.
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    Post by Saxon Violence on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:39 am

    I saw pictures of a Field Expedient Bow once...

    It's like it was a Bow, with a somewhat shorter secondary bow pointing the other direction fastened to the Front.

    Bending the Main Bow would Straighten the Secondary Bow—but presumably it had some desire to return to it's bent mode.

    Maybe you could so a Crossbow using that principle.


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    Post by kenh on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:57 pm

    Your "field Expedient Bow" wwas a design invented by the Penobscot Amerindians.  It does give a certain amount of increased power, but not nearly to the extent that Nerd's design does....
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    Post by hullutiedemies on Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:50 am

    Depends how one defines increased power.
    Penobscot has fat power curve, while I have been going after maximum dry-fire speed.
    In archery terms in-swinger type projectors are somewhat "inneficient" because the first 1-2 inch of draw has light draw weight.
    Efficient F/D-curve is desirable for longbows, but less important in a crossbow because draw weight and power-stroke length of a crossbow are not as much limited by physique of the operator.
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    Post by stm2010 on Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:53 am

    Very academic.It is hard for me to understand .

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