The Arbalist Guild

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Crossbows - Everything about Building, Modding, and Using your Crossbow Gear

Latest topics

» Ball shooting Crossbows worth the bother
by topfmine Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:24 pm

» Chu Ko Nu - repeating chinese crossbow
by Dark Factor Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:36 am

» Skew of tiller
by drawknife Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:18 am

» tiller desgin
by crusader Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:37 am

» Want to build modern target crossbow
by ora8i Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:20 pm

» starting a 1400's replica
by tghsmith Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:25 am

» New Medieval just about finished
by Dark Factor Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:41 am

» How do I tune this
by stuckinthemud1 Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:14 am

» Plans and materials for my first build
by c sitas Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:39 am

» Bolt rest
by stuckinthemud1 Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:24 pm

» Collotiere a Charavines crossbow
by stuckinthemud1 Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:25 pm

» ash lath and pin-lock crossbow
by stuckinthemud1 Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:56 am

» Late medieval tournament distances?
by stuckinthemud1 Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:20 am

» Cutting delrin straight by hand?
by kenh Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:24 pm

» Other forums like this one?
by stuckinthemud1 Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:23 am

» new find in china, terra cotta warrior site
by tghsmith Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:42 am

» Crossbow Books
by Andy. Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:46 pm

» 95lb ancient crossbow shot faster than 960lb medieval
by Fangbows Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:36 pm

» best type of horn to use..
by kenh Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:16 pm

» re-introduction
by tghsmith Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:15 pm

» 4 fletch question
by 8fingers Fri Feb 05, 2021 3:14 am

» fix bolts
by MPDVM Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:40 pm

» Reverse draw compound bow build
by c sitas Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:20 pm

» New Build for 2020
by Gnome Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:19 am

» Spanning bench ideas
by stuckinthemud1 Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:07 pm


+5
Todd the archer
Anatine Duo
Rizzar
Jason D
kenh
9 posters

    Why does all new inventions die?

    Oppenheimer
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 44
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:03 pm

    The Strizh, Gearhead, Twinbow, Technarm and now it seems that even Talisman Mantis crossbow has disapeared from the market.

    Yes, I know all the oficial things you can read about them on various forums's, but I want to know the real secrets why they fail. Has the usual crossbow makers have sutch a firm grip on their dealers so no one is willing to let them in? Is the dealer to get rid of their bonuses or the right to be the only one in neigbourhod to sell a particular brand if they let a Newbee in?

    We all now that Monney needed for production located in the US market. The reason is determined by the laws prohobiting hunting in many European nations. We also know a hunter is more than willing to pay the normal fee for a rifle.

    It is in mourning, I see that Phil has not updated his Facebook page since the beginning of November. Have the new limbs broke? The teams change in england? Run out of production-money? Accuracy Problems?

    Now I would be glad to enlighted your opinions. (Excuse my rotten English. I'm from Sweden)

    Is there anything we can do to support inventors in any way? I love them.
    avatar
    kenh
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 846
    Join date : 2012-08-03
    Age : 73
    Location : Living Aboard a Sailboat in Fort Myers, FL

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by kenh Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:35 pm

    I suspect the problem is basic supply and demand and cost of production versus price you can sell/buy for and make a profit.

    1.  Face it there is not a HUGE demand for crossbows of quality.  Lots of demand for cheap Chinese almost toys but not for serious quality crossbows.
    2. The cost of the "tools to make the tools to make the product" is not cheap.  Molds and CNC mills, and laser cutters, etc. are very expensive.  So are the wages for skilled craftsmen to use those tools.  That makes the cost to build 1 crossbow (or 100 thousand) crossbows very high.
    3.  Because the cost to make a high tech crossbow is high, and the makers wants profit over the cost to make, the selling cost is high.
    4.  If the selling cost is too high for the buyers, few people buy and the idea dies.
    avatar
    c sitas
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 543
    Join date : 2012-11-24

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by c sitas Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:40 pm

    Like what has been said already. I don't believe the average person has any conception of what it takes to make something go. Most often lacking is" Money" . It
    takes a lot of it and the trouble is ,that's what's almost always lacking.To get through the lean times is where the challenge lays.The product might be good as gold,but it takes money to hold on until the product starts to move.This holds true since the beginning of time, sadly.
    Oppenheimer
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 44
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:33 am

    OK but why doesn´t one of the today-producers pick up the new ideas and make a 500 fps-bow that takes over the market? Is the problem that the best ideas is protected by patents and there´s no income big enough to feed the inovator? On the regular market it seems like the only big steps forward has been the compound bows and later the reverse draw technology. The rest seems only to be the yearly minor changes without real capacity-steps forward.
    avatar
    c sitas
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 543
    Join date : 2012-11-24

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by c sitas Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:33 am

    yes, I think your thoughts on the patents are right on . To start an adventure like that in marketing ,you'd certainly have to have protection.You mentioned before that some of these designs were of very high tech. Real life is dog eat dog now days.
    avatar
    kenh
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 846
    Join date : 2012-08-03
    Age : 73
    Location : Living Aboard a Sailboat in Fort Myers, FL

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by kenh Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:46 pm

    A producer who 'picks up a new idea' would have to pay a patent licensing fee from the inventor.  That adds another level of cost to the manufacturing cost.
    Jason D
    Jason D
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 33
    Join date : 2010-01-14
    Location : Alberta, Canada

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Jason D Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:38 pm

    There are other considerations. Once you start dealing with hyper-velocity crossbows you start getting into reliability and noise issues. If  crossing the 500fps mark you have just lost the Canadian market as any projectile moving at 500+fps is treated as a firearm and requires a firearm licence. I believe other areas also have velocity restrictions regarding crossbows and hunting.
     Hunters are, in a way, the most conservative bunch you will meet, the most revered rifle action is the Mauser M98 and its derivatives, synthetic stocks took twenty years to become accepted, and so on. Now you want to bring in a radically different design to a group that still not has wholly accepted the crossbow as a hunting tool? Very hard sell there.
    avatar
    c sitas
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 543
    Join date : 2012-11-24

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by c sitas Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:03 pm

    NOW, you are starting to understand the system. Ah yes. Hardly any one has a 400 plus machine let alone a 500 rocket.Where did I lay my spear! Have fun anyway guys.
    avatar
    Rizzar
    Workshop Savvy

    Did you see my tool collection?


    Workshop SavvyDid you see my tool collection?

    Posts : 194
    Join date : 2012-08-11
    Location : Germany

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Rizzar Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:40 pm

    Supporting Kenh´s first argument: you need a market for those new designs.
    Even with customers that own high quality crossbows.
    Not everybody who owns a crossbow instantly buys a new design that is some little % "better" than the old one.

    Difficult to get into profitable numbers.
    It is not the automobile industry that forces renovation every couple of years with a high number of customers.
    Oppenheimer
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 44
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:17 am

    Thank´s for interesting answers. You are truly right about relate to the automobile industry where customers are many but developement still goes slow because of big costs for production changes and the customers habit to be wanting slow changes.

    Maybe the only alternative is the defence market? Stanislav Pasquale /Tecnarm once wrote that there are already existing and non-oficial 500 fps crossbows on the military market. Anyone who knows more about that? Are crossbows accepted in the Geneva convention as a weapon?

    The inventor of Strizh is also inventor of a couple of other bows named "satan" etc, and some of them shall also be/been of secret use in the former soviet defence forces. Would be interesting to know more about that.

    Even Phil Abrahms of Talisman Mantis has said something about getting inspired by something in the SAS I guess? 

    I´m also specially sorry for that Warhammer1´s inswinger concept died out. 

    As a former salesman in the industry I´m interested booth in the technical inventions and the market issues. Maybe the best way to develope a new idea is this forum and accept there´s no way you can earn a living on new creative thinking. It´s probably better to just have fun here and hope someone with economical muscles,in the future pic up the ideas and put them in to production. Just the creative thinking is wath I myself likes most.
    Anatine Duo
    Anatine Duo
    Tinkerer

    If there is a will, there is a way.


    TinkererIf there is a will, there  is a way.

    Posts : 64
    Join date : 2013-10-07
    Location : Muskoka, Canada

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Anatine Duo Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:22 am

    maybe the creative thinking has to go into marketing instead of enjoying the workbench

    something for discussion?
    Todd the archer
    Todd the archer
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 581
    Join date : 2010-02-25
    Age : 59
    Location : sellersville,pa.

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Todd the archer Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:15 am

    Anatine I think you hit the nail right on the head!

    We need to meet peoples needs with our ideas and not just make something new and different.
    Oppenheimer
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 44
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:25 pm

    Off course peoples needs and ideas must meet but the existing limb-technology has reach it´s limits acording to Stanislav/Tecnarm. The need for shoting longer distances with accuracy is still there so new ways for producing more speed, is a must to meet this need. I think the big problem is to do it as it looks like it´s a normal crossbow. The one who has come closest is Phil/Talisman Mantis wich look more like a crossbow than the reverse draw models. Add to that the beautiful engravment Phil also is famous for. Most people don´t even understand how the weapon works. My guess is that the limbs are too heavy and breaks because the lack of slow speed reduction. 
    The other main problem I see is keeping accuracy in high speed mode and timing-systems of limbs.

    Anyone who knows how small (or big) the crossbow market is?
    Anatine Duo
    Anatine Duo
    Tinkerer

    If there is a will, there is a way.


    TinkererIf there is a will, there  is a way.

    Posts : 64
    Join date : 2013-10-07
    Location : Muskoka, Canada

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Anatine Duo Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:21 am

    The market feels small, even here where they are legal for hunting and firearms license is somewhat expensive.

    The hunting shops here are loaded with models of xbow.  Knowledge of xbows is low in the market... a guy at work bought one and couldn't tell me if it was compound or not... I asked if it had pulleys but he didn't know.  Even our small town walmart has 3 models of tactical crossbow.

    The mainstream market is moving toward tactical crossbows, factories are designing jagged bits to make them look like sci-fi space ships then paint black or digicam.

    Personally I upgraded from a cheapo asian recurve (which brought me my first archery-season deer) to an Excal Axiom because it was robust, low mass, and improved trajectory over the 180fps I had been using. and not too expensive.  Can't justify buying another... but I shall build.

    If I were marketing xbow style launcher to get new tech out there  I wouldn't try to compete directly with major players.  Many little car companies tried that and failed.  High Country Archery offers 400fps vertical bows and hardly anybody has heard of them even in the comparitivly large USA market.

     Most people I know who hunt with xbow do not shoot for pleasure, so providing a pleasurable shooting experience can open a market.  Preppers are another possibility, they might want a compact field-serviceable model.  Non-expensive ammo could help, since plinking with fancy carbons is expensive. Hunting season is short; it is smarter to sell 365 days a year.  Sell to wives... I think crossbows are sexy (and husbands who make major purchases without discussion are not)

    You got me thinking...
    Todd the archer
    Todd the archer
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 581
    Join date : 2010-02-25
    Age : 59
    Location : sellersville,pa.

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Todd the archer Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:29 am

    When it comes to marketing you either must fill a need that is unfulfilled (lighter, faster, smaller) or create a need. The latter takes some creativity. For example crossbow were fairly obscure until they started legalizing them for the hunting community. Finding new markets like said earlier (preppers) is the key.
    Todd the archer
    Todd the archer
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 581
    Join date : 2010-02-25
    Age : 59
    Location : sellersville,pa.

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Todd the archer Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:32 am

    Should add you can appeal to a persons emotions as well. Create the lure of hunting like William Tell and the market for medieval styles will increase.
    avatar
    c sitas
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 543
    Join date : 2012-11-24

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by c sitas Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:47 am

    You know, another aspect that hasn't been mentioned is liability. I can see where triggers could make a big "if", in the business. It would only take once.  Just another thought .Insurance companies can be the next thing to insane .  All these little leaks in the bucket and pretty soon there is no water left.
    hullutiedemies
    hullutiedemies
    Workshop Savvy

    Did you see my tool collection?


    Workshop SavvyDid you see my tool collection?

    Posts : 184
    Join date : 2012-07-03
    Location : Fennoscandia

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by hullutiedemies Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:40 am

    Oppenheimer wrote:OK but why doesn´t one of the today-producers pick up the new ideas and make a 500 fps-bow that takes over the market? Is the problem that the best ideas is protected by patents

    Best idea is not protected by patents.
    A plain medieval high brace-short stroke desingn with modern syntethic bow - hollow carbon tips etc. can easily make past 150m/s. - Add a long goat foot and quarter ton draw weight is as easy to span as modern 150# compounds.

    But if you invest money for marketing and succeed create demand for unpatentable product, the market will be quickly flooded with cheap Chinese clones.



    Concerning bolt speed
    There is one practical problem when increasing speed over 120m/s (400fps imperial) : the energy a customer can produce with one muscle-stroke is about couple hundred Joule (~ 27g 120m/s ). Multi-stroke spanning mechanims OTOH are clumsy to use and possibly also illegal for hunting in some market areas.
    And since arrow is momentum penetrator, relying on its sharp point and mass rather than velocity and energy, there is a practical limit how light projectiles archery hunters are willing to use.

    Of course sport shooting crossbow can be build to shoot faster light weight projectiles. But then it starts competing with air rifles- A competition that crossbows allready lost once in 19th century.
    Oppenheimer
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 44
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:38 pm

    Multi-stroke spanning mechanims OTOH 

    What is this? I don't understand? Neutral
    avatar
    Hermit
    Workshop Savvy

    Did you see my tool collection?


    Workshop SavvyDid you see my tool collection?

    Posts : 245
    Join date : 2013-09-10

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Hermit Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:04 am

    Multi stroke spanning mechanism..................A crossbow cocking device example,a cranequin(winch)
                                                             Hermit.
    Oppenheimer
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 44
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:07 pm

    Thank's. I thought it was some kind of two-stage spanner mechanism or something.

    Sponsored content

    Why does all new inventions die? Empty Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:08 pm