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    Cutting a Bolt Groove

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    Post by Stonedog Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:52 am

    OK guys.  I tried out the bolt rest.....not a fan....

    So, I want to cut a bolt groove in my existing tiller.

    How and with what should I hand cut the groove?

    I do own a dremel....

    Pics are a bonus!
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    Cutting a Bolt Groove Empty make bolt groove

    Post by c sitas Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:50 am

    I would say, without any cutting tools it would be easiest to scrape a slot in the top of your flite way.Use your mind to picture this.Pick an old bolt about the same dia. as your bolts.  I would grind an old bolt that is 5 or 6" long. On the end where the threads are. Hold the bolt looking straight at the end and grind about half of it away for about 1" in length.It would be just like using your finger nail ,only it won't hurt so much.From your cut, back around to the other side, kinda round it a little less than the bolt dia.. You are making a flat face cutter with a little clearance on it.If it doesn't want to dig in,--look at the thing and see where it appears to be rubbing and grind some more. Clamp a straight board to  your stock in such a way that it centers your scrapping tool on your flite top.I would dig out about 1/8 to 3/16" deep.This should work for a 2 fletch bolt.By using less pressure as you get deeper you should start to make it fairly smooth. Then finish sand. You could also make for three fletch by making a skinny tool and just go deeper in the center of the slot. I'm no expert but I have used this way, it worked for me. Actually I think it's almost as quick as using a router, and a lot safer.
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    Post by Gnome Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:25 pm

    Unless you're a real virtuoso with a Dremel, I'd stick to hand tools- too easy to screw it all up in the blink of an eye. Take your time and go slow with hand tools- I'd start with a straight edge and utility knife and score down the center of the bolt deck a few times, then open that up with a scraping tool of some kind. You can make one such as C sitas suggests, or use a round rasp or even a square or triangular one. I have a couple of these that I have purposely broken the ends off so I have a nice sharp edge to work with. Then I finish it off with a dowel wrapped with sandpaper, switching to ever finer grits as I get closer to the final shape. I don't try to get a snug fit to the bolt, because I think that just makes more surface area contact and more friction. I prefer a groove slightly narrower and deeper than the bolt, so that the bolt just rides on two "rails" of material. In fact I've only done a couple semicircular cross section bolt grooves, most that I make now are V shaped.
    Good luck and let us know how it goes!
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    Post by Hermit Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:29 am

    A foolproof way to cut the groove would be with a guide.A simple guide would be to clamp 2 pieces of angle iron to either side of the stock,with wooden shims between the stock and the angle iron(bits of plywood or cut to size shims if you have a tablesaw)the shims should be sized to give you the groove width you have decided on.There are several hand tools you can use to cut the groove.One thing I should mention,is that you can heat and bend files,both round and flat without softening them,I have done this many times to make metal hand scrapers.I am sure you can envision how you would bend a rat tail(round) file to do what you want.Good luck,and hope this works for you.
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    Post by Stonedog Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:05 am

    Dremel has a plunge cut router tool with an edge guide for 30$.....gonna go that route!
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    Post by Gnome Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:22 am

    If you're talking about the drill-press type stand for the Dremel tool, I have one of those- be warned they aren't very sturdy. I hardly touch mine anymore because it's too wobbly and imprecise. Maybe I beat it up too much when I first got it. I have a full complement of 1/8" shank router bits for my Dremels, but mostly I use the depth guide that screws onto the tool and freehand it with a clamped-on guide when I need it.
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    Post by septua Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:37 am

    My removable “V” tracks are cut on a table saw but that requires a perfectly flat deck anyhow.
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    Post by Stonedog Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:09 am

    No its not the drill press but an actual plunge cut router....
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    Post by Gnome Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:42 am

    Oh, I know what you mean. That's a different thing, probably work better. I've seen them for sale up to $50, so $30 sounds like a good deal. Let us know how it works out.
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    Post by Hermit Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:43 pm

    A plunge cut router will help with the trigger inletting,and cutiing the prod slot too,altho' you will likely need to make simple jigs...........
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    Post by Wargasm Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:32 am

    router or better yet a router table with a fence guide. failing access to those I'd buy a dremel router attachment, or reshape a block plane blade and use it to gradually shave a groove into the deck.
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    Post by Hermit Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:34 am

    No need to re-shape a block plane.I'm sure you've been in higher end old houses,and seen the elaborate mouldings around doors,windows covings and baseboards.Back in the day,those mouldings were made with a series of moulding planes,which the carpenter made himself.The plane bodies were made from hardwood,and the blades were set with and secured by wedges(home depot 3/4ins. oak plank will work)the blade I'm sure you can manufacture yourself or buy something suitable to modify.a little research will show you how to make the planes,they are not difficult or time consuming to make.One last thing about the blades.Woodworking blades are  softer than metal working tools,so if you find a piece of ordinary carbon tool steel(not HSS)and have done any hardening and tempering,you can soften work it and re-harden it yourself with a propane torch.If you harden by colour,steel working tools are tempered to light straw colour,woodworking to light blue.
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    Post by amir Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:39 pm

    can anyone upload some pictures how to cut a stock groove by hand (no router)
    maybe something with a jig and a chisel or any other way?
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    Post by c sitas Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:19 pm

    Take a piece of round stock about the same size as your bolt. Grind the round stock down about half way flat the long way, for maybe 1".The stock only has to be long enough for you to hold, even with a vise grip if you want.After you have a half flat rod, take a round file and  sharpen a hollow on the end.You have a gouge now.Take a piece  of stright wood and use it for a guide and clamp it to the stock so as to position the gouge where you want your groove. Just drag this back and forth until your close to finish. Sand the rest of the way by hand .I've done this may times and it shouldn't even take you an hour.
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    Post by Gnome Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:25 pm

    Amir,
    Don't have any pictures, still have to put my shop back together after moving. Ditto what c sitas said, but I would add a step at the beginning of the process- it's easy for me to make a groove just the right depth and shape, but getting it to run precisely straighty down the center of the tiller is that hard part. I start a guide groove using a metal straightedge and utility knife. I score straight down the center to a depth maybe half of what I want the finished groove to be, making repeated, low pressure passes with the blade to make sure I don't go too deep or split off into a bad direction. I turn this into a groove by carving down the sides at a 45 degree angle, with a utility knife first and then with a round rasp or gouge such as c sitas describes. I finish with a dowel slightly smaller than planned bolt size and wrap it with sandpaper.
    Some might want to do this quickly and precisely with power tools and jigs, I prefer the slower hand techniques. It takes more time, but to me "more time" amounts to an enjoyable afternoon.

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    Post by c sitas Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:41 pm

    Gnome; You bring home a most important point. Take the time to get your hands dirty and enjoy this hobby. So many want to machine this and that.Also, just hurry up, not. Remember, the real thing was not=---machined.
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    Post by amir Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:08 am

    c sitas and Gnome - thanks so much for the info....really helpful.
    i do own a round chisel that is just the right dimension. i just didn't get an accurate groove (not strait and with different depths).

    maybe i need to practice some more.
    I'll try what you where referring to and clamp to my stock a pice of strait wood as a guide...
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    Post by kenh Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:37 am

    If you're handy working metal, or have a friend who is, you can also make a bolt groove scraper out of a piece of tempered steel flat stock and some wood for handles.  Like a chisel, but the blade stands at 90 degrees to the deck of the tiller. 

    In my muzzleloading days I used a "half octagon" scraper to create tight fitting channels of octagonal barrels in rifle and pistol stocks.
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    Post by edstuff Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:10 am

    Go to about 7:37 of the video below and he shows his method. I like this guys videos btw.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQQjY-EOvdM
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    Post by OrienM Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:12 am

    I struggled with this a bit as well, and ended up using an old-time tool called a "scratch stock":

    Cutting a Bolt Groove Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR239_4PNH1dSbK7XJQaBWNMM7HbMMHPv8olEDSBLTNE6mu-Zc8
    A very simple tool...just a scraper blade attached to a wooden block, which acts as a fence and depth stop. The blades can be ground from old sawblades or other steel scrap; just replace the square cutter shown here with a half-round one, and you'll be good to go.

    My version was was made in about 5 minutes, and is even cruder than this tongue ...I just used a small c-clamp to hold the blade to the L-shaped block.
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    Post by c sitas Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:04 am

    Amir; you could save that grove if you wanted to. Some of the purists here might laugh but fill your mistakes. You can use wood putty "rock hard", you can use body putty, and such materials. Main thing with the grove is not to get the sides tooooo wide,the depth is not so important.You want the bolt just barely cradled in the grove. I personally don't use a groove .I use a capture rest in the front ,nothing in the back,thing here is I use a nock. My bolt doesn't touch anything but the rest in the front and the string in the back
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    Post by amir Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:31 am

    guys. thanks so much for the replies. i think ill try something similar to what OrienM mentioned

    c sitas, thanks but i dont need to save the stock becuase i practiced on a scep wood not on the real one
    also the video that edstuff mentioned is quite good....going to see all of it now 

    
again thank you (c sitas, kenh, edstuff, OrienM, Gnome)

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