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» Collotiere a Charavines crossbow
by stuckinthemud1 Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:25 pm

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» 4 fletch question
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    Collotiere a Charavines crossbow

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    stuckinthemud1
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    Post by stuckinthemud1 Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:17 pm

    Evening!
    I'd like to make a replica of this crossbow and believe it is 110cm ttt and 3cm wide at centre (according to https://www.bourges1ere.fr/Archeologie.htm)

    Can anyone add to this, I really need thickness at centre, ideally, I could do with thickness at limb centre and at the nocks as well.

    Thanks in advance,
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    Post by stuckinthemud1 Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:53 am

    So, this is what I have, probably enough for a decent replica but I would love the reasurance of accurate measurements and a front elevation.  I've contacted the museum but with France going into lockdown I think I'm going to have to be patient.

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    Post by hullutiedemies Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:13 am

    according to https://www.bourges1ere.fr/Archeologie.htm


    L'arbrier est en frêne et mesure 80 c de long par 3 cm de largeur.
    The tiller is of ash and 80cm long by 3 cm wide.


    L'arc est en orme et mesure 110 cm de long par 4 cm de largeur
    The bow is elm, 110 cm long and 4 cm wide.

    Draw weight of the featured replica is 54lbs.
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    Post by stuckinthemud1 Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:38 pm

    Thank you for that, that's really useful, could I confirm if that is for the original artefact or for the modern reproduction?  I did not realise the original was elm rather tban yew. From what I can see in the photos, the modern repro looks like its nowhere near 3 or 4cm thick.
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    Post by Geezer Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:16 am

    Elm makes sense for a bowstave: not as good as Yew perhaps, but the original craftsman probably didn't have a lot of choice.  To a great extent, I expect basic bows like the Charavines crossbow were made with what was available.  Keep up the good work!  DRW
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    Post by stuckinthemud1 Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:15 pm

    Elm would be correct for the period, writing in the early 13th century Gerald of Wales records the Welsh wood of choice for bows was Wych Elm and I believe there were Elm longbows in the Mary Rose inventory.  Ironically if I have to use Elm its going to be more expensive and more difficult to source than Yew thanks to Dutch Elm Disease.
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    Post by Geezer Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:56 am

    There's one of the problems of trying to replicate the original.  Do you try to get the identical materials in the original, or do you do what the original craftsman did, and use what is available in Your locale.  Either way could be considered authentic.  Here in Texas, a local craftsman would probably use bodark (Bois d'Arc) for the prod.  That's the best locally available wood for self-bows. Whatever floats your boat.  DRW
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    Post by stuckinthemud1 Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:19 pm

    It might come to that, yew would also be correct for the period and would give a decent data set on draw weight and performance characteristics, maybe reducing thickness by 10% would be necessary.
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    Post by hullutiedemies Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:04 am

    stuckinthemud1 wrote:From what I can see in the photos, the modern repro looks like its nowhere near 3 or 4cm thick.

    Wide. I do not really speak French, but my dictionary translates "largeur" as width or wideness.
    Thickness of the limbs seems to be about 1½ cm at bridling. Just comparing against the mentioned 3cm tiller top.
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    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:00 pm

    Thanks guys. I enlarged the image to A3 and scaled up the various measurements, arriving at, 4cm thickness at centre from back to belly with the back being 3cm wide.
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    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:49 pm

    Collotiere a Charavines crossbow  20210210_2128158905111397377225243
    Have emailed the museum twice now but still heard nothing. In the meantime a wych elm stave has just been delivered.  Felled about two weeks ago, I'll trim it to a little  oversize and seal the ends for 6 months or so.
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    Post by stuckinthemud1 Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:23 am

    Nooo, finally tracked down a specialist academic in France who confirmed the bow fragments in the drawings were all of yew, the bolt fragments also recovered from the site were ash. Now I have two fine wych elm billets and no project to use them on.  So annoying.  Ah well, no doubt they'll make something fab at some point.
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    Post by stuckinthemud1 Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:25 pm

    well, I spent some time following the archaeological drawing of an original tiller and trigger. Have to say, this is a really sophisticated design, you lean against the trigger with your thumb which you activate by pushing it (not pulling) while lightly laying a finger on the bolt and holding the back end of  the cut-out section, all with one hand, the other hand being at the fore-end holding up the bow.  The trigger has a stop designed into it and gives a lovely positive action,  clicking into place on both ends of its movement, though carving the stop into the trigger channel is a bit of a potch.  I messed the geometry up and had to put the nose of the trigger into a groove in the string notch to stop it gapping as it reached the top of its arc.  Its all mated to a 30lb walnut bow with a late gothic type binding as no-one knows what the binding should be and this type of binding is as likely as any as well as being very effective.
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