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5 posters

    Leather braiding to bind on stirrup

    stoneagebowyer
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    Post by stoneagebowyer Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:54 am

    Leather braiding to bind on stirrup Got_Armbr_ausKlosterNeustiftBrixen_ausBraunschweig1475GBP25-50_000_-_4Leather braiding to bind on stirrup ArmbrustA1032_9kl



    Hi, gang. Does anyone happen to know a method to bind on the crossbow stirrup using thin strips of leather in a kind of basketweave pattern. Here are two examples of what I am talking about. It would be a great way to do this in the future, but I can't quite figure it out without help. Thanks, Dane
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    Post by mac Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:21 pm

    Dane,

    There's really nothin' to it but to do it. You start with a sort of figure of 8 that goes over bow arms and through the stirrup, and finish off by weaving around and around stirrup.

    I have used raw hide for this, but it looks like both of the examples you posted are tanned leather.

    I have a sort of "schematic" diagram of the path of the lace in one of my notebooks. I will try to find it and either post it, or make a more legible diagram and post that. If I haven't done that in the next couple of days, feel free to nag me.

    Mac


    Last edited by mac on Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
    stoneagebowyer
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    Post by stoneagebowyer Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:22 pm

    Mac, I would be very grateful for the info. Thanks!

    Dane
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    Post by mac Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:24 pm

    I'll start looking through my notebooks.....

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    Post by mac Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:13 pm

    Dane,

    I went through six small notebooks and 10 large ones to find this cryptic little diagram. It is a flattened schematic of the pattern. The big holes are where the limbs of the bow are. [img]Leather braiding to bind on stirrup Leathe10[/img]

    Here's the only trick. You start with the middle of the length of leather in the middle of the base of the stirrup, and work in opposite directions.

    This diagram presumes that you will go five times around the limbs of the bow. This produces the woven part in the middle of the stirrup. When that is done, you continue weaving around the perimeter of the weave you have already formed. The dots in the diagram are the "arms" of the stirrup emerging. Continue weaving the ends until you run out of room or leather.

    When the weaving is in place, you must tighten everything up by working from the start to the ends with a pliers. It might well take two or three passes of tightening to bring everything up snug.

    If this fail to make any sense, please don't hesitate to ask, and I will try to express it some different way.

    Mac
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    Post by stoneagebowyer Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:42 pm

    You went to a lot of trouble. Thank you!

    Let me see if I understand. You start with one long strip of leather, and measure so you find the center. You begin by bringing both ends around the bow arms, then back across, and repeat. As you progress, you weave, and the basketweave pattern emerges. Tighten as you go along, and eventually, you have your binding.

    About how much leather to you reckon this process needs?

    Dane
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    Post by 8fingers Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:43 pm

    I suggest you check out Bruce Grant's 'Encyclopedia of Leather Braiding'. Lots of practical and decorative use of braiding. Lost my copy and awaiting its replacement. Some of his patterns yield s star pattern, can be done with thongs of different colors.
    I believe horse hide doesn't stretch, deer hide is probably one of the strongest, goat might be a little stronger, if you can get it. Use a braiding soap, mixture of saddle soap and lard to let the thongs slide into place a little better, reduces thong abrasion so it looks better when it all dries.
    I like the wooden thong cutter from Tandy Leather better than my all metal, pistol grip thong cutter and it is 1/3 the price. Put a wood finish on it that will allow your rawhide / leather to slide better through the arms, and maybe a little texturing on the handle to improve your grip afterwards.
    Make a fid, sort of wooden or bone awl to help work your thongs into place. Maybe a good use for a tine of an antler?
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    Post by mac Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:55 pm

    Dane,

    That's basically it. I recommend doing a "dry run" in twine or some other material to make sure everything is working out. That will also tell you how much material you will need. The amount varies according to ho thick the limbs are (&c.) and how many times you will need to pass around them.

    In any case, it is always better to find the center of a length of material buy folding it in half, rather than by using measurement and math. It's much quicker, and almost fool proof.

    When it comes to doing it for real, you will want to make sure all the weaving is done before you start tightening it up.

    Mac
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    Post by mac Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:02 pm

    8F,

    That's a good point about the horse hide. I wonder if that is what we are seeing in the pics.

    I have used rawhide, because of one of the crossbows at the Met has a binding that is clearly very heavy rawhide.

    Mac
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    Post by stoneagebowyer Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:33 am

    Great. I very much appreciate this information, Mac. Folding in half is exactly what I had in mind for measuring, btw Smile 8F, some good insights, too. Thank you. I have no idea what kind of leather I will get, but want to keep things historical is possible.
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    Post by Ivo Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:58 pm

    Hey, Haha, great stuff and a much awaited topic for some. Mac, you're the man! Very Happy

    Did Lightly stop by this topic yet? She was very excited and looking for this exact bit of info. Better go and let her know!!! Smile

    Ivo



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    Post by Lightly Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:22 pm

    I have been looking for this exactly! Thanks SO much... I tried it once, looking at photos like the above, but mmmm.. could not get it to look neat and 'correct', so, been looking for more clear instructions. Will go and try again...

    I think I can make a flattish bone fid to help, out of the scraps we have here in the shop.

    Since this worked so well, I want to ask if anyone knows how to tie a prod on in the 'traditional' way...
    We here do a perfectly fine job of it, with our cockscomb cinching, and, still, I am curious as to how it was done back then. Any leads?

    Thanks again Mac! and 8Fingers:

    Best;
    Lightly
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    Post by mac Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:39 pm

    Lightly wrote:

    Since this worked so well, I want to ask if anyone knows how to tie a prod on in the 'traditional' way...
    We here do a perfectly fine job of it, with our cockscomb cinching, and, still, I am curious as to how it was done back then. Any leads?

    Thanks again Mac! and 8Fingers:

    Best;
    Lightly

    You are very welcome, Lightly.

    What, in particular, are you confused about? Is it the binding in general?, or the style that uses the holes in the tiller above ans below the bow? I have not done the latter sort, but I did get it figured out on a piece of scrap paper once. That was a couple of years ago, when we had just moved, and I could not find a notebook. I will try to find that paper....I say it a few months ago...

    Mac
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    Post by stoneagebowyer Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:13 pm

    Learning another method for binding on the prod would be GREAT, but take your time, Mac.

    All this talk of fids reminds me of an old sea song I particulary like. Here are some of the lyrics, if I can be so bold.

    I'll sing me a song of the rolling sky,
    To the land that's beyond the Main;
    To the ebb-tide bell or the salt pork meal,
    That I'll never taste me again.

    There's many a night I've lied me down,
    To hear the teak baulks cry;
    To a melody sweet with a shanty-man beat,
    As the stars went swimming by.

    Don't ask me where I've damn well bin,
    Don't ask me what I did;
    For every thumb's a marlinespike,
    And every finger's a fid.

    I mind the times as we were becalmed,
    With never a breath for the sheet;
    With a red sun so hot that the water would rot,
    And the decking would blister your feet.

    And then there's the times, as we rounded the Horn,
    With a cargo of silk for Cadiz;
    The swell roll was so high it were lashing the sky,
    Till the whole ruddy world were a fizz!

    Don't ask me where I've damn well bin,
    Don't ask me what I did;
    For every thumb's a marlinespike,
    And every finger's a fid.
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    Post by stoneagebowyer Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:53 am

    Just a heads up for those sourcing leather. I ordered a 50' role of deerskin 3/8" wide from Crazy Crow, an online supplier I have had great dealings with in the past. Great service and quality, and fast, too. Here is the link to the product I ordered. 50' ought to be more than enough. I'll be posting pictures of the weaving process once I get to that.

    http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=515-300-000
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    Post by mac Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:16 am

    Ok....I found the scraps of paper where I made those notes.

    I am trying to figure out how best to represent the bindings. When I try to do it schematically, it gets pretty hairy pretty fast. The alternative is to represent it in a series of diagrams. This is what I am leaning toward, but it will take some time to make them all up.

    The other issue is the question of the binding patterns where the cords pass through the mysterious holes on either side of the forward bolt rest, and in the "chin" of the tiller. I think I am seeing two variations on how this is done, but it can be very hard to interpret the pictures of the few examples I have seen. Since this seems to be typical of the earlier crossbows, I feel obliged to understand it fully and present it clearly.

    When I get my diagrams in order, I will probably start a new thread to present them. That will make the material easier to find again in the future.

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    Post by mac Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:23 am

    stoneagebowyer wrote:Just a heads up for those sourcing leather. I ordered a 50' role of deerskin 3/8" wide from Crazy Crow, an online supplier I have had great dealings with in the past. Great service and quality, and fast, too. Here is the link to the product I ordered. 50' ought to be more than enough. I'll be posting pictures of the weaving process once I get to that.

    http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=515-300-000

    Dane,

    Are you thinking to use the deerskin to bind on the stirrup? I fear that it will be way to stretchy. I have been using raw cowhide because I feel that tanned cowhides are too stretchy; and deer will be even more so.

    I did a quick search for rawhide lace and came up with these guys.

    http://www.black-bear-haversack.com/product_info.php/products_id/4223

    About 6 feet of it should do. The 3/8" might be a bit wide, but 1/4 is probably too narrow.

    Mac
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    Post by stoneagebowyer Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:24 pm

    Well, rats, but on the positive side, I can always use the deer for atlatl handle wraps and other things.

    I will purchase some from that source, thanks Mac. The color will look nice, too.

    Dane
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    Post by mac Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:34 am

    I've started another thread on prod bindings (as distinct from leather stirrup bindings) here.
    https://thearbalistguild.forumotion.com/t530-prod-bindings#4597

    Mac

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