The Arbalist Guild

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Crossbows - Everything about Building, Modding, and Using your Crossbow Gear

Latest topics

» Codex Löffelholz crossbow
by stuckinthemud1 Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:14 pm

» Digitar prodsc
by stuckinthemud1 Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:42 pm

» Troubleshooting
by Andy. Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:29 pm

» Arab Crossbow
by kenh Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:39 pm

» Skane/Lillohus crossbow thread
by stuckinthemud1 Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:22 pm

» Wood Prods
by stuckinthemud1 Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:47 pm

» Colletiere a Charavines crossbow
by stuckinthemud1 Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:54 am

» Simplified Löffelhotz speedloader
by stuckinthemud1 Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:05 pm

» Fiberglass H-bows
by c sitas Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:44 am

» Bad Antler
by drawknife Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:48 am

» Anyone make their own bolts?
by Juniper Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:20 am

» Josef alm in English
by Juniper Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:22 am

» Qin/Han lock drawings
by kenh Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:16 pm

» stirrup dimensions?
by stuckinthemud1 Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:49 pm

» Skane/Lillohus lockbow information needed
by stuckinthemud1 Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:23 am

» need help contacting le musee Dauphinois Grenoble
by stuckinthemud1 Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:22 pm

» Low Draw Weight Build
by stuckinthemud1 Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:09 pm

» Trigger testing Rig/Jig?
by ora8i Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:13 pm

» best type of horn to use..
by stuckinthemud1 Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:13 am

» Han Dynasty Chinese Crossbow
by hullutiedemies Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:00 pm

» Drawing of Crossbow
by stuckinthemud1 Fri Jun 03, 2022 3:01 am

» "How To Make Everything": Early Crossbow
by stuckinthemud1 Thu Jun 02, 2022 3:41 am

» Black inlay
by stuckinthemud1 Fri May 13, 2022 3:18 pm

» Roller nut details
by drawknife Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:44 pm

» 330#/7" wood bow
by Anatine Duo Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:08 am


5 posters

    Arab Crossbow

    Geezer
    Geezer
    Master Crossbowyer
    Master Crossbowyer


    Posts : 1194
    Join date : 2010-01-12
    Age : 75
    Location : Austin, Texas, USA

    Arab Crossbow Empty Arab Crossbow

    Post by Geezer Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:12 am

    Headsup, crossbow makers.  I just discovered this site from Spain.  It's a catalog for an exhibit of artifacts from the last Moorish stronghold... the Alhambra in Granada.  Take a look, there's a really interesting and different Arab crossbow, plus illustrations of more european style crossbows being used by moors-arabs-whatever one calls muslim Spaniards of the 15th century.  It's pretty cool anyhow.  Geezer http://www.alhambra-patronato.es/fileadmin/pdf/CATALOGO_Armas_y_enseres_de_la_defensa_nazar__.pdf
    jds6
    jds6
    Workshop Savvy

    Did you see my tool collection?


    Workshop SavvyDid you see my tool collection?


    Posts : 197
    Join date : 2011-10-18
    Age : 60
    Location : Dallas,TX

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by jds6 Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:40 pm

    Very interesting, the crossbow looks very thin to say the least. Thanks Greezer for the heads up. Just wish I could get it to translate into Texan!!!

    jds6
    Geezer
    Geezer
    Master Crossbowyer
    Master Crossbowyer


    Posts : 1194
    Join date : 2010-01-12
    Age : 75
    Location : Austin, Texas, USA

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by Geezer Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:26 pm

    For what it's worth, I've got some dimensions at least.  The stock length is 79 centimeters... call it 30 inches.  Prod length is 1.3 meters... pretty darned big... it looks like wood backed with a substantial bit of sinew.  The roller-nuts listed on another page all come out to 25-27 mm wide and @ 30 mm in diameter.  Given a nut of @ 25 mm (1 inch) wide, that makes this stick about 1.5 inches... say 37 mm wide at the lock.  Note that the stock suddenly narrows to a more or less cylindrical handle a few inches behind the lock.  I suspect that's the hold-point for the back hand, so some sort of tickler trigger (consistent with the bone nuts) should terminate about there.  Presumably fore-hand holds beneath lock, or more likely some distance ahead of that. 
    Note also that there's no real groove atop the stock, just lots of fancy carving that presumably would wear against the string.  I suppose the dark, bent-down section above the prod has some sort of bolt-groove, otherwise the bow's not actually shootable.  The text says markings on the stock suggest the bow either belonged to the Sultan's family or one of his retainers.   I hope that helps a bit.  Geezer
    kenh
    kenh
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 873
    Join date : 2012-08-03
    Age : 74
    Location : Living Aboard a Sailboat in Fort Myers, FL

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by kenh Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:03 am

    Great find, Geezer.  With any luck I'll be able to visit the exhibit.  My Lady Sally and I are going to Spain in October to settle some things with her father's estate (he passed away about a month ago). Probably no archery related souvenirs from his estate, but I will be bring back a WWII regimental Kukri (he served with the Ghurkas in Bruma) and perhaps an 18th century flinchlock pistol that he collected at some point.  However there is a rumor that he at some point had a crossbow (call it 50 years ago) in England.  Who knows what treasures we'll unearth.
    Geezer
    Geezer
    Master Crossbowyer
    Master Crossbowyer


    Posts : 1194
    Join date : 2010-01-12
    Age : 75
    Location : Austin, Texas, USA

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by Geezer Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:51 am

    Great idea, Kenh.  Be sure and take pictures of the Arab bow, if they're allowed.  Views from the lock back might be helpful in replication... see if there's any sort of trigger left.
    As for life being a beach, I saw a bumper sticker on a weekend sailor's car that said.
    'Life's a reach, and then you gybe.'
    Geezer
    mac
    mac
    Master Weaponsmith
    Master Weaponsmith


    Posts : 561
    Join date : 2010-12-23
    Location : Near Philly USA

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by mac Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:02 am

    There's a good pic of this bow in Harmuth's book.  I will try to post it later, if I can figure out what the problem is with my camera.

    Mac
    mac
    mac
    Master Weaponsmith
    Master Weaponsmith


    Posts : 561
    Join date : 2010-12-23
    Location : Near Philly USA

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by mac Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:33 am

    Here we go.  My battery was just low.

    This is from Egon Harmuth's "Die Armbrust", 1986.

    Arab Crossbow <a href=Arab Crossbow Sdc18910" />
    Arab Crossbow <a href=
    It really is skinny, isn't it!

    Mac
    avatar
    stuckinthemud1
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 497
    Join date : 2014-02-05
    Age : 54
    Location : south wales valleys

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:46 am

    I don't want this thread to disappear, so I am resurecting it to post new information.  I have been in touch with the museo arquelogico granada who kindly sent me a bundle of information, in the form of a copy of their fiche and a link to an article from 1982, which they believe to be the only article written on the crossbow - so well done Geezer for finding the article in the OP!

    This is the text from the fiche after having gone through Google Translate :

    Museum Archaeological and Ethnological Museum of Granada
    Inventory CE01002
    Generic Classification Weapons
    Item/Document Crossbow
    Material/Support Wood
    Iron
    Bronze
    Ivory
    Bone
    Tendon
    Technique Carving
    Dimensions Major axis = 123 cm; minor axis = 80 cm
    Description It is composed of two pieces of different origin corresponding
    to a crossbow for war and another for hunting. The arch or yard is
    made up of two pieces reinforced with tendon and five strips of thread
    of linen and inserted in the hollow of the fork, tied to the carriage with
    a link of leather straps that cross it through a perforation
    on top. The two fragments that make up this piece
    are locked in three parts of it with ties and the
    ends have incisions to hold the strings or ribs
    who would have the mission of tensing the bow to make the shot.
    The gun carriage is triangular in shape, open in a fork at its most
    wide to accommodate the arch whose top slopes to
    facilitate the exit of the arrow and act as a crosshair when aiming.
    The carriage progressively decreases from the jaws to the piece
    of the bone cylindrical, striated in the transverse direction of the tail,
    design already documented in the ´Cantigas de Santa María". The walnut
    it is housed at a third of the total length, reinforced by a piece
    Chiseled with a clamp that reinforces its box and the breech. The
    key is covered by ivory plates and the clamp remains
    delimited with inlay motifs. The ornamental richness of the
    gun carriage is considerable and indicative of a luxurious hunting crossbow.
    Some authors, carried away by this character, have considered that
    It belonged to the Royal House (Mendoza Eguaras, 1982). Their
    inlaid ornamentation is carried out in two sectors of the same: a
    lower ring that houses the walnut and another part in the extremity that
    Finish off one of the fork handles. His work is lasso
    geometric bronze with ivory inlays. The applications
    of openwork and chiselled bronze are the main decorative element,
    with ataurique work, which gives it great aesthetic beauty
    to the set.
    Dating 1300-1499
    Cultural Context/Style Middle Ages. Al Andalus. Nasrid
    Use/function Weapon
    Geographic Descriptors Grenada
    Place of Origin Mecina Bombarrón (Alpujarra de la Sierra, Alpujarras (region))
    Reasoned Classification The crossbow played a very important role in the world
    Muslim, being frequent the news about her in texts from
    the twelfth century. They highlight the effectiveness of crossbowmen, including as
    special forces of the army. Also in the Cantigas is
    reflected their work in the siege of cities, documenting
    stirrup crossbows from the 13th century. The construction system of
    This piece is collected by Ibn Hudayl, a Granada writer from the
    second half of the 14th century, and in the paintings of the Alhambra.
    Type of Collection Stable Collection
    Bibliography MOLINA FAJARDO, E.. ´Hunting in the Alhambra enclosure´. 1967. p.
    31-53.; Alhambra Notebooks, 3.
    Observations Available for temporary exhibition, according to current legal regulations.
    avatar
    stuckinthemud1
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 497
    Join date : 2014-02-05
    Age : 54
    Location : south wales valleys

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:47 am

    For Spanish speakers, the original text:


    Museo Museo Arqueológico y Etnológico de Granada
    Inventario CE01002
    Clasificación Genérica Armas
    Objeto/Documento Ballesta
    Materia/Soporte Madera
    Hierro
    Bronce
    Marfil
    Hueso
    Tendón
    Técnica Tallado
    Dimensiones Eje mayor = 123 cm; Eje menor = 80 cm
    Descripción Está compuesta de dos piezas de diferente origen correspondientes
    a una ballesta de guerra y otra de caza. El arco o verga está
    constituido en dos piezas reforzadas con tendón y cinco fajas de hilo
    de lino e insertado en el hueco de la horquilla, atado a la cureña con
    un trabazón de cintas de cuero que la traspasan por una perforación
    en la parte superior. Los dos fragmentos que componen esta pieza
    están trabados en tres partes de la misma con ataduras y los
    extremos poseen incisiones para sostener las cuerdas o nervaduras
    que tendrían la misión de tensar el arco para efectuar el disparo.
    La cureña es de forma triangular, abierta en horquilla en su parte más
    ancha para dar cabida al arco cuya parte superior se inclina para
    facilitar la salida de la flecha y actuar como punto de mira al apuntar.
    La cureña disminuye progresivamente desde las quijeras a la pieza
    del hueso cilíndrica, estriada en sentido transversal de la rabera,
    diseño ya documentado en las ´Cantigas de Santa María". La nuez
    se aloja a un tercio de la longitud total, reforzada por una pieza
    cincelada dotada de abrazadera que refuerza su caja y la rabera. La
    llave se recubre por placas de marfil y la abrazadera queda
    delimitada con motivos de taracea. La riqueza ornamental de la
    cureña es considerable e indicativa de una lujosa ballesta de caza.
    Algunos autores, llevados por este carácter, han considerado que
    perteneció a la Casa Real (Mendoza Eguaras, 1982). Su
    ornamentación en taracea se realiza en dos sectores de la misma: un
    anillo inferior que alberga la nuez y otra parte en la extremidad que
    remata una de las asas de la horquilla. Su labor es de lazo
    geométrico de bronce con incrustaciones de marfil. Las aplicaciones
    de bronce calado y cincelado son el principal elemento decorativo,
    con labores de ataurique, lo que le confiere una gran belleza estética
    al conjunto.
    Datación 1300-1499
    Contexto Cultural/Estilo Edad Media. Al-Andalus. Nazarí
    Uso/función Arma
    Descriptores Geográficos Granada
    Lugar de Procedencia Mecina Bombarrón(Alpujarra de la Sierra, Alpujarras (comarca))
    Clasificación Razonada La ballesta representó un papel muy importante en el mundo
    musulmán, siendo frecuentes las noticias sobre ella en textos desde
    el siglo XII. Destacan la eficacia de los ballesteros, incluidos como
    cuerpos especiales del ejército. También en las Cantigas queda
    reflejado su labor en el asedio de las ciudades, documentándose
    ballestas con estribo a partir del siglo XIII. El sistema constructivo de
    esta pieza está recogido por Ibn Hudayl, escritor granadino de la
    segunda mitad del siglo XIV, y en las pinturas de la Alhambra.
    Tipo de Colección Colección Estable
    Bibliografía MOLINA FAJARDO, E.. ´Caza en el recinto de la Alhambra´. 1967. p.
    31-53.; Cuadernos de la Alhambra, 3.
    Observaciones Disponible para exposición temporal, de acuerdo a la normativa legal
    vigente.
    kenh
    kenh
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 873
    Join date : 2012-08-03
    Age : 74
    Location : Living Aboard a Sailboat in Fort Myers, FL

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by kenh Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:11 am

    So if I'm reading this right, the prod was a "loose laminate" of two pieces held together with ties:

    The arch or yard is made up of two pieces reinforced with tendon and five strips of thread
    of linen.... The two fragments that make up this piece are locked in three parts of it with ties and the ends have incisions to hold the strings...." 
    avatar
    stuckinthemud1
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 497
    Join date : 2014-02-05
    Age : 54
    Location : south wales valleys

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:21 am

    Umm, not a loose laminate, I'm not even sure it was two pieces or if the pressure from the sinew drying split the lath, but that is idle speculation - the bow is in two pieces a top and a bottom piece, not a front and back piece. You're really on the ball today Ken, am trying to resize and post the photos from the fiche.  Anyone know how to translate a PDF?  I can screen grab the 1982 article but I can't translate it.

    Arab Crossbow Img_0383
    avatar
    stuckinthemud1
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 497
    Join date : 2014-02-05
    Age : 54
    Location : south wales valleys

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:25 am

    Arab Crossbow Img_0385
    avatar
    stuckinthemud1
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 497
    Join date : 2014-02-05
    Age : 54
    Location : south wales valleys

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:28 am

    Arab Crossbow Img_0384Arab Crossbow Img_0388Arab Crossbow Img_0387
    mac
    mac
    Master Weaponsmith
    Master Weaponsmith


    Posts : 561
    Join date : 2010-12-23
    Location : Near Philly USA

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by mac Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:07 am

    Great pictures, stuckinthemud1

    I wonder why they think the bow and tiller do not belong together.  They seem to fit OK, and the side view shows that while the tiller is slender, there is still a lot of wood there.  I think the tiller is probably strong enough to handle the bow.

    Mac
    avatar
    stuckinthemud1
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 497
    Join date : 2014-02-05
    Age : 54
    Location : south wales valleys

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Jan 05, 2023 4:00 pm

    This is a set of screenshots of the article from 


     Cuadernos de La Alhambra,  ISSN 0590-1987, Nº 18, 1982,  págs. 179-182 


    It was published in 1982 but I am posting it here so that all the major articles on the crossbow are in one place.  

    I'm afraid it's still in the original Spanish, once I manage to get it translated, I'll post an English version (unless someone else gets there first!)

    Arab Crossbow Image


    Last edited by stuckinthemud1 on Thu Jan 05, 2023 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    stuckinthemud1
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 497
    Join date : 2014-02-05
    Age : 54
    Location : south wales valleys

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Jan 05, 2023 4:07 pm

    Arab Crossbow Img_0393-2282185184-e1672960311562



    Arab Crossbow Img_0394-375649347-e1672960356693
    avatar
    stuckinthemud1
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 497
    Join date : 2014-02-05
    Age : 54
    Location : south wales valleys

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Jan 05, 2023 4:25 pm

    Arab Crossbow Img_0395-1633993941-e1672960204307



    Arab Crossbow Img_0400


    Last edited by stuckinthemud1 on Thu Jan 05, 2023 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    stuckinthemud1
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 497
    Join date : 2014-02-05
    Age : 54
    Location : south wales valleys

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by stuckinthemud1 Thu Jan 05, 2023 4:29 pm

    Arab Crossbow Img_0398

    Arab Crossbow Img_0396-4167931247-e1672960407144

    Arab Crossbow Img_0399-1758628094-e1672960470295

    Arab Crossbow Img_0397-2406131193-e1672960498245
    kenh
    kenh
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!


    Posts : 873
    Join date : 2012-08-03
    Age : 74
    Location : Living Aboard a Sailboat in Fort Myers, FL

    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by kenh Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:39 pm

    With the nice new photos photos I now see the "split" lathe.  Funnily enough I was actually thinking about this arrangement in order to make a wider prod but not necessarily stronger prod. A useful idea if the timber you have readily available isn't big enough.  As long as the lathes are bound together -- and in this case they were sinewed across the split as well as being tied and held together at the tips but the string loops -- there should be little issue as long as the two pieces of wood share similar flexibility.

    Sponsored content


    Arab Crossbow Empty Re: Arab Crossbow

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:49 pm