The Arbalist Guild - Coat of Arms

Hello Everyone,

Whipping up a quick topic dealing with an interesting project I had on my mind for some time now.

There are several crossbow building forums out there...We have The Russian Forum(several actually), The Swedish Forum, The French Forum, and of course Us(USA)....perhaps there are others, so you are also welcome to mention them here.

I would like to create something like a small network between us all by providing a links panel with our coat of arms icons serving as links....while other forums already have or are working on their icons, we however still have no coat of arms to date.

Therefore I propose we combine our effort to design this symbol to represent The Arbalist Guild on the Net and other places in the world.

My inspiration for this idea comes from Robin Allen's - Cranequin Fellowship(Guild ) Coat of Arms.



A few details I would like to mention on my vision:

1. It would be a Shield or Crest shape.
2. The Arbalist Guild scribed on it.
3. Employing both medieval and modern crossbow elements.
4. A symbol that this is an Ameican forum, however with a slightly international theme...since we have members from all over the world joining our group.
5. Possibly we can also fit the tools of the trade to help signify that the forum is about crossbow "building".

These are just a few things that I think might help design this symbol and I'm looking forward to hearing your ideas and suggestions.

Thank You,

Ivo

PS: If you wish to show a draft of what you are thinking about, it can be presented in any format/quality.

I'm not bad with the utensils(my avatar was done in my own hand),

Spoiler:

...but on occasion do little lame sketches in MS Paint...so those are more than welcome to help picture your design. Here is a small example of what I sketched up while discussing coat of arms on the Russian forum.(that's my bear in the picture ) with cut and pasted pieces of patent pictures thrown together for a basic idea.



Ok, Hope to hear from you guys...an idea is an idea...might just shoot.

This is a cool idea. Not the most creative person but I'll try to help you come up with something to use for the coat of arms.

Ivo,

I think what you have there is a bit too busy. Here are my suggested changes to your proposal.

Just divide the field per pale, with the modern and traditional crossbow taking up the whole thing. That is to say leave off the isolated bow limbs that make up the lower two quarters.

Leave out the bear (?). He just complicates things.

Move the bandirole up to a place either just above, or just below the shield. It obscures things too much in the middle.

I would post a sketch, but I can't make the image hosting thing work.

Mac

Yep, it's busy o'rite. ...but it's not for our forum...Arbalet.info is a Russian forum...they deal with bows, crossbows, slingshots and everything else that throws things, be they arrows or lead balls...so it's kinda hard for them to settle with just crossbows. While on our end it's all we have...Crossbows.

Image hosting service is back in service. It seems like they were doing some site maintenance yesterday, but all is well now.

I agree with the side-by-side modern/medieval deal...however it's a bit tough to fit them together still. May be I went too modern with a step through riser and past parallel limbs, so that's on my mind.



Tried some stuff with symbols...and touched ends on the ones familiar to Masons...not sure if that's a good idea to use them here, but since I already drew it...might as well put it up for discussion.



Tried to combine them, still very raw and all over the place.

[url=https://servimg.com/view/14665618/295]

Then there was this one other thought I had...sort of "off the anvil"/"off the mill" theme...again also very raw and needs work...



And last, but not least - something to pin the design to.

These are the shapes that most appealed to me, but I'm always open for more suggestions.



On the above picture is also another version of the two crossbow halves...now that I think about it, perhaps a full view of the medieval prod on top and full modern on bottom would look good...haven't tried that yet.

---

So as you can see I'm kinda working in silhouette format and over all focusing on the simple "black and white" detail and probably gold framing.

Let me know what you think guys.

Ivo

Ivo,

I misunderstood. I thought you were proposing that sketch for this this forum.

I'm sorry....I'll just shut up now...

Mac

Actually... ...I was hoping that people would get in on this and work together to design coat of arms for our forum...I'm asking for your opinions, criticisms, what ever you got...everyone's word counts.

Ivo, I like those sketches... do not have time right now to have a look around at other designs and try to contribute more (except to say, I like it!) but perhaps after I get back... this is the busiest time of the year for me, but, I think it is a great idea and I would certainly wear a patch proudly did we come up with a nice design.

Just a quick sketch. Not too busy. I think it still needs something maybe a border, maybe color?

Looks good cmgower.

Don't think it needs a border all the way around. Maybe just the top and bottom.

Color would be good. Just make sure to pick colors that are contrasting. If the trad crossbow is brown then the modern crossbow should be blue or green (just suggestions)? and the back ground Or or Argent (gold or silver). Just my take on the color scheme. The goal is to have something that stands out,

Cmgover, looking good! I think we could use the same logo on the Wiki front page.

Haven't book on in a while...really short on time these days, but I agree- looks good.

Still needs a bit of work though...Mac wanted to post some pics, but needs some help with picture posting, so lets also wait for him.

Also...We might need to add a few minor details to hint it's a crossbow building forum, Perhaps wings with files, calipers, and other building/measuring tools instead of feathers? ...this is kind of a joke suggestion and possibly an overkill, but I'll see what I can conjure up tonight.

As for Wiki version, perhaps we can modify it a bit to give it a little bit of encyclopedia theme. Perhaps a similar composition "rising" out of a book?

I'll be back in the morning with a few ideas drawn out.

Ivo

Have you looked up the heraldry of some of the real medieval crossbow guilds for ideas.
The charges on a coat of arms should be identifiable at a good distance.
Letters are almost never used as charges. so no A G
Colours in heradry are strongly contrasting to increace visibility. colours(red, green, blue) are not put on colours and metals(silver/white, gold, black) are not put on metals. brown is not used as a field colour just for charges.
You can add the tools of the trade without adding too much clutering detail by using them in the full acheivment of arms. That includes the helm its crest and mantling above the escusion (shield) The suporters to either side of the escusion (usually animals) and the motto below.
I like the Pavaise shape and the crossed crossbows. crossed charges are rare and usually from the 17C or later.

Hello from a newbie - brought here by information that you were considering a "coat of arms"

May I comment? testhero has a very good knowledge of heraldry but does not mention one important thing, The College of Arms does not look at all kindly on those who "assume" Arms to which they are not entitled. To be "legal" in heraldic terms anything which give the impression of an achievement of arms (shield, helm, crest, supporters, mantling, motto etc) should not be used on what is in effect a badge. Sorry folks. Incidentally "Coat of Arms" refers to the surcoat worn over armour, with the Arms on it to which that person is entitled. The "Acheivement" is the name given to what you are discussing. And a "Crest" is that device which is attached to the top of the helm. Only a Grant of Arms - from the College of Heralds and with their design - allows someone to use Arms of any kind. And believe me that costs a lot of money !

Stick with a roundel or an oval and avoid helm, crest and such like and you will be fine

Good Day to All and Vee, welcome to the forum.

Very interesting development Tethero, Vee.

Vee, I can't be sure of where you are from since you haven't specified it in your profile, but considering you mention the College of Arms and your knowledge of the regulations applicable to the rights to Arms, I assume you are from the region where these regulations are in effect?

The Arbalsit Guild was founded on US soil. Perhaps this may be the circumstance under which we do not fall under the College of Arms jurisdiction?

What ever the case, I would like to stick with the tradition to some extent and to house our group under one seal, signifying us as an organized community of masters preserving their knowledge and their apprentices pursuing the art of the crossbow building.

From what I've read, heraldry is a whole language and symbols tell a whole story of the bloodline...which is fascinating to say the least . If in US, or anywhere in the world for that matter, one was put together a coat of arms...It would have to be done right... There I totally agree with you Vee.

Considering I do not want to bring my own blood line into this and would rather consider you guys my family of Arbalists...I think we can start by telling our story and compiling this coat of arms...now doing it correctly will require a little more research on various symbology rather than just "assuming" something. So if you guys know anything related to our trade it would be great to hear about it...we're making history here.

Thanks Everyone...this is the reason why I love this community so much, you guys are A-W-E-S-O-M-E!!!

Ivo

I was just looking at the College of Arms website. They will 'devise' arms for U.S. Companies/Groups but I don't believe they can grant arms to a U.S. group. As long as we don't copy an existing coat of arms or existing logo then they don't have much say. In the U.S. Titles of Nobility and the like have no meaning, in fact short of an order of congress we (being U.S. citizens) can, unfortunately, not be given Titles and the like.

I do understand that it is different in Great Britain and other European countries. Depending on the country it may depend on how it is used. Making a logo and calling a "Coat of Arms" may be different than designing something and trying to use it in an official capacity (what ever that is)

That is one thing I have enjoyed about this forum and others is hearing from people in faraway lands and different customs. I tend to forget that even today in some places Titles are still important and have a legal standing.


I should add that I do like the Pavise shield but I agree with Vee about not have a helm. It would be too much.

PS: I was also thinking about making the outer trim in shape of a gear (...perhaps even have a few smaller adjacent gears on sides with a bit of scroll work uniting them...)
and have the name and motif of the forum written in the top and bottom.

I know I'm a new member and I hope I am not over stepping myself. It looks a bit too busy to me. Maybe a diagonal instead of a chevron and loose the scroll under the crossbow. If this was shrunk down as a link I think the detail it has now would just look crowded or not distinguishable. I do like the shield shape of the first one. I also like the anvil and hammer of this one.

Hey Pacer,

The scroll is actually kinda essential here

...in fact it's what got me back into thinking about this topic.

Symbolically, the scroll is a message, it's information we share in our circle. So that's where I started.



After exploring this basic example I thought I'd hide a few more things in it. As opposed to the logo I posted earlier, the original had the diagonal dividers on the circle in the horizontal plane...which spawned from this bit of exploration.



Reason I put them in the vertical plane is at the moment of drawing I didn't like that the arrow was pointed at the Guild part of the circle. But I think I got it figured out by replacing it with fleur de lis...lol, "peace to the stronghold" ...but more about that later.

*There are more things hidden in the lines of my logo.*

I wanted to stick with the classic crossbow as the main symbol for our group, but not forget that we are not only about them...then I noticed that the scroll shape would allow me to hide more limb systems and the "chevron" bit played a really cool role in this.



I managed to include all three types of draw.

1. The regular bow - first line in the chevron (shortest draw length)
2. The modern compound - second line in the chevron (second stage in crossbow development - increased draw length)
3. The reverse draw compound - third line ( third stage - longest draw we have so far)

As you can see all three lines touch the stock in different locations, always further down the stock - fortifying the meaning of the above three "draw length" lines and in fact can also resemble the reticles of a scope (horizontal increments that stand for the arrow drop at greater distances). ... I can tell you that there is actually *one more* lymb system hidden in there, but I'll leave that one to age since it's a design that in it's current state is having trouble surviving past 300 shots.

So yeh, busy indeed...

The problem is, getting everything fitted - PERFECTLY, so that the limbs of the crossbow are touching the anvil/deer and do not interfere with the rest of the symbols...*oh* and the bitch of all computer ages - so it can be re-sized without loss of too much of this detail. Probably need to simplify it more and playing with the colors/positioning.

You guys are probably going to say I'm crazy, but it's what I do - crazy things. ...and if you re-read the topic...I haven't left a single idea suggested out of the process...just fitted/interpreted them in a way that isn't *off the bat* obvious.

I know I'm a new member and I hope I am not over stepping myself.

Not a biker forum man...no one is slapping anyone off their skateboard here. Thanks for the input, just you chiming in to this topic is already inspirational enough to keep going...so thanks for the input. I'll get back on it tonight!!!

Ivo

Some cool work here, Ivo. My only bit of input is regarding the anvil. I like the idea and what it symbolizes, but unless I knew it was one from reading the thread, I am not sure I would have picked up on it, as it is so stylized. If you could make it more anvil like, all the better. But, if not, it is still some groovy stuff.

Do you plan to have a Latin motto on this coat?

Dane

I totally missed the draw symbolism and can see why you want to keep it. Didn't have a problem identifying the anvil. How about keeping the draw lines themselves but losing the actual scroll. The crossbow could be enlarged a bit to divide the anvil from the deer to make up for the lose of the scroll. Also I would slide the chevrons up a bit. I know that would throw the draw symbol off a bit but it just looks unbalanced to me. I do however think the whole thing is shows promise and I can tell you have put a lot of thought into it! All I can do is tell you what looks off balance to me. I'll be curious to see how you tweak it.

pacer

The man decided to finally get back to work?

Since you want that scroll so bad, but it's giving you a head ache and messes with the layout - just put it behind the circle.

That way you can make the crossbow bigger, keep all the other details, and like pacer said - get that chevron positioned properly.

I suck at MSPaint and you will ahve to hit me with a keyboard to get me behind a CAD app, so just figure it out yourself man. I can leave you an ugly ass sketch on the desk if want.(it's got BBQ sauce all over it...hurry before the dog eats it)

Later, haha.

Antho

Antho wrote:Since you want that scroll so bad, but it's giving you a head ache and messes with the layout - just put it behind the circle.

Hmmm, that might just work. Actually - YES!

stoneagebowyer wrote:If you could make it more anvil like, all the better.

Will do.

stoneagebowyer wrote:Do you plan to have a Latin motto on this coat?

YES! And I was wondering if you guys would be interested in helping me choose or make one up. With Antho's idea of putting the scroll behind everything (and top and bottom rolls overlapping the circle/gear) we have a perfect place for the guild name at the top and motto at the bottom. CLASSIC!

So while I'm working on the design, maybe you guys can throw some ideas on the motto bit.

My mind is somewhere between:

"Thorough Art and Science..." and "...everything Changes, nothing Perishes."

well and of course I like the Paradox: "Everything Genius, is Simple."

But anyway, I'd like to hear how you guys view this place.

Lightly wrote: I think it is a great idea and I would certainly wear a patch proudly

This has been in my mind ever since you mentioned it. I'd love to do something like that.

Ivo

Here are a few mottos, in Latin and English, that seem appropriate for what we do here. And yes, I would like to see a physical patch you can sew on one day:


Celeritar - With speed
Consequiter quodcunque petit - He obtains whatever he seeks
Dant vires gloriam - Strength gives glory
Dulce periculum - Danger is sweet
Famam extendimus factis - We extend our reputation by deeds
Finis coronat opus - The end crowns the work
Forti et fideli nihil difficle - To the brave and faithful man nothing is difficult
In scientia veritas in arte honestas - In science truth, in art honour
Labor omnia vincit - Work wins everything
Ne tenta vel perfice - Attempt not or accomplish
Omina vincit labor - Labor conquers all things
Probitate et labore - By honesty and toil
Studio sapientia crescit - Wisdom grows by study
Velis quod possis - Aim at what you can accomplish
Vi et industria - By strength and industry

I do like the idea of a coat of arms.
A few years ago I married her indoors.
For the wedding invitations I had a family coat of arms made into a brass wax stamp/seal.
Sealing each invite with gold wax, ribbon and my own designed coat of arms.
The brass seal was made by an online company in the UK, cost was about £35.00.
Just a thought, but it is good to have something solid in your hands rather than just an image.

As this is a Guild of Arbalists, it would also be fitting to be able to obtain a (Ring, Pendent) or any other such item, bearing the coat of arms, if desired.
Just a thought.

Keep up the good work.

Peter.............

Ivo,

I don't know how far things have gotten with the coat of arms thing( which is a great idea, nor do I have any expertise in such) I would only suggest one should bear in mind....... ALL GENIUS IS SIMPLE.

Chaz