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    simple rear sight design

    Basilisk120
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    Post by Basilisk120 Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:08 am

    Looking to add a simple rear sight to my crossbow.
    My two main design requirements:
    1. It has to be simple. to meet SCA rules on allowable crossbow sights. But at least in the Atenveldt rules it doesn't define simple Mad
    2. It should fold down. For safe storage and convenience

    So far I have made a prototype of the design out of cardboard and it proves the concept is viable. Next step is to work out how to mount it to the stock. First thoughts are to keep it simple and just use a couple of screws.

    Pictures of the prototype.
    simple rear sight design 2011-06-04224524
    Open

    simple rear sight design 2011-06-04224536
    Closed

    I'll keep on adding updates as things get down.

    Ideas are always appreciated for other simple sights as well or ways to mount this

    .



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    Post by 8fingers Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:34 am

    How about the thumb notch sight? Authentic, rugged, easy to make. Block of wood screwed to stock with a couple notches carved in it, use top of your thumb as sight but with notches of different depth you get different elevations. See Gallwey's book, pg 93. See figure 47, also pgs. 117, 118,.
    Han era locks had a series of notches on an extended tab that looks to me like a rear sight, and it looks like it kept the lock from rotating too far.
    Another simple rear sight was a post that extended out of the side of the stock, like those for goats foot levers, and marks were made on the inside of the prod or lower front portions of stock.If you are aiming with both eyes open and are right eye dominant, your right eye is ' looking through' the stock, and most of your aiming is done with your left eye. Line up post and a mark on the stock with your target.
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    Post by Basilisk120 Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:11 am

    8fingers wrote: Another simple rear sight was a post that extended out of the side of the stock, like those for goats foot levers, and marks were made on the inside of the prod or lower front portions of stock.If you are aiming with both eyes open and are right eye dominant, your right eye is ' looking through' the stock, and most of your aiming is done with your left eye. Line up post and a mark on the stock with your target.

    I hadn't thought about that. One of my orginal ideas was a simple post going straight up but using the posts out the side. I'm going to have to atleast give it a shot to see what its like.

    Kind of a tangent question. In the SCA how are rear sights on crossbows perceived? Sure there legal but are they seen as cheezy or just there. I haven't had much of a chance to shoot with groups other than my own so looking for perspectives from other groups.



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    Post by Master Bran Padraig Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:28 am

    Basilisk120 wrote:
    Kind of a tangent question. In the SCA how are rear sights on crossbows perceived? Sure there legal but are they seen as cheezy or just there. I haven't had much of a chance to shoot with groups other than my own so looking for perspectives from other groups.
    First, they are legal as you said for 'Open' Crossbow. They are not 'legal' for 'Period' Crossbow (for Inter Kingdom Archery Comp (IKAC), period Royal Rankings, or any shoot which is 'period' only). I understand that rear sights were used before 1600 but that is the SCA shooting rules currently in place.

    2nd, A few crossbow shooters use them. Sometimes even on modern type crossbows. Most crossbow shooters do not (at least not that I have seen). Many of the crossbows are what I would call the New World Arbalest type in terms of looks.

    3rd, I have also been wanting to add a 'period' looking rear sight which I could remove for 'period' class shooting but use otherwise for Royal Round rankings and open IKAC. I think it would be helpful in getting a few more points in Open Crossbow IKAC and Open Crossbow Royal round rankings. I would never use it in a champion shoot even though it's legal. I have used a rear sight in the past on someone elses crossbow and I know that it improves my scores. I feel that for me to use them in an event shoot like that would be 'cheezy'.

    As far as how SCA people view them... many SCA people (who shoot hand bows) already think that crossbows are too good and that they can't complete with them. This is often held view by hand bow shooters who, one, have never shot a crossbow and two, are not that good with thier hand bow. Most of the good shooters know that in a well balanced shoot, a hand bow shooter can complete against a crossbow with no issue. My guess is that using a rear sight will make more people feel it is not fair.

    So, on the practice range for royal rounds and IKAC, no problem. At events, it may be a little 'cheezy' depending on how high your shooting skill is. But no one will stop you from using it as long as it is within the current rules.
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    Post by mac Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:08 pm

    Basilisk,

    Please allow me to make a plea for authenticity.

    If you are shooting a thing that looks like a 16th C target bow, then a sight is appropriate.

    If you are shooting anything else, be it a military bow from any time, or a pre-16thC. hunting bow, then a sight is not appropriate.

    If a sight is appropriate to your bow, then you should use one, and not worry what others think. You can be confident in the knowledge that you are doing it right.

    If your bow would not have had a sight historically, and you are thinking of putting one on just to raise your scores, you might think hard about what you are doing, and why.

    If you wish to have an experience of historical shooting, you must immerse your self in it; accepting the bow for what it is and was.

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    Post by mac Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:22 pm

    Has anyone here aver tried the sort of sights that are on the target bows in Churburg? Here is a diagram in Harmuth's book from page 138.

    [img]simple rear sight design Xbowsi10[/img]

    It looks like the sight is there to insure that your eye is in the same place every time....unless I'm misunderstanding this.

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    Post by 8fingers Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:22 pm

    This is what I was trying to describe. I've experimented a little but my SCA bow would need a strut below the prod for the ranges I shoot.
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    Post by Basilisk120 Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:10 pm

    Thanks for the comments so far.
    Master Bran - Thanks for clarifying the about the "open" versus "period" rules and sights for me. I hadn't really thought about that. Your thoughts on how crossbows are perceived matches my experience and that was what I was looking for. That was the other reason I wanted a folding sight so that the sight could be not used if needed. If I am shooting against myself or against other crossbows that use it then it could be nice to have but in an open competition that I would think I would feel better not using it.

    Mac - I understand the desire for authenticity, that is what led me to getting the crossbow I did. This experiment with build a rear sight is more of an exercise to see if I can build one and how well it works. How much will I use it? Not sure, I usually about playing to the spirit of the rules and yeah shooting historically is part of the fun. The journey is better than the destination.

    And I still haven't looked up the Thumb Notch sight 8fingers mentioned. grr maybe tomorrow if I remember.



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    Post by Geezer Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:41 am

    Geezer here, concerning medieval/renaissance sights.
    I've seen two types of sights on medieval crossbows. The big siege-bows used in competition in San Marino and Gubbio, use an off-set peep and aperture sight. The peep is offset, at the rear, somewhat behind the lock. The fore-sight is a notched aperture-plate mounted just behind (and to the side) the prod.
    Renaissance gentlemen's bows use a centered folding rear-sight (with adjustable sight-plate), without any sort of locking mechanism. The point of your bolt serves as a front-sight. The sight, which is designed to fold forward, leans slightly back in service. The sight's weight will keep it upright, unless you're shooting substantially downhill. Presumably, it will fall forward on recoil, but that's all to the good. These bows invariably require a spanning device, usually gafa or cranequin, so a tall sight would be in the way for loading.
    My SCA customers would rather have a sight that locks in place, thanks to light weight bows and competitions that require very high rates of fire, but in fact, all the folding sights I have seen have no lock other than gravity.
    The 'diopter' sight, from Egon Harmuth's "Die Armbrust" as submitted by Mac, might make a useful alternative. I have actually seen a bow mounted with this sight... don't recall if it was in London or Vienna. Probably Vienna, at the Hofburg museum. One could experiment with placement of the little loops by taping them in place till you arrive at good solutions. Then a loop could be fabricated from a screw-in brass cup-hook for an authentic appearance.
    Anyway, that's what I know about period sights. Geezer
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    Post by Basilisk120 Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:57 pm

    Finally got it made and mounted.
    Haven't had a chance to get to the range yet to try it out. Most likely that will happen this Friday.
    I'm somewhat happy with how it came out. It should work the way I intended but I already see some things I would like to see improved like the hinge joint. But this was a nice project to get a feel for my new Dremel tool.

    simple rear sight design 2011-06-07212459
    Source of the metal

    simple rear sight design 2011-06-10211206
    Open, can't quite see the fluer de lie on the base.

    simple rear sight design 2011-06-10211247
    Closed



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    Post by JMC Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:01 am

    Hisimple rear sight design 1cc14810
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    Post by Basilisk120 Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:34 am

    Thanks JMC for the picture. It is nice to get a close up of that sight.

    Do you know anyone who makes those?



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    Post by Vidar Halvslak Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:57 am

    Some samples :
    http://armborst.forum24.se/armborst-about64.html
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    Post by JMC Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:41 am

    Basilisk120 wrote:Thanks JMC for the picture. It is nice to get a close up of that sight.

    Do you know anyone who makes those?


    I do not know anybody, I'm going to make it for my crossbow
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    Post by Vidar Halvslak Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:10 am

    Quite easy to make a historic sight of two plates.
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    Post by 8fingers Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:02 pm

    Some Black Powder arms suppliers sell sights that could be reworked to get you closer to what you are looking for.http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/SubList.aspx?catID=14#167
    What about a simple notch in your bolt clip as a rear sight?
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    Post by Basilisk120 Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:41 pm

    Thanks 8fingers I hadn't thougth about looking at Tracks of the Wolf for sights but those are good looking.

    I had an idea for using an old Enfield rear sight. Might have to recalibrate the distance measurements Razz



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    Post by Vidar Halvslak Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:19 pm

    This one is easy to make : http://s2.postimage.org/vsrvburo/2803103_693x804.jpg
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    Post by Todd the archer Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:33 pm

    Here is a simple rear (and front) sight I just came up with. It is very simple to make and use. It even folds down flat!

    simple rear sight design Simplerearsight002-1

    here it is tipped up into position
    simple rear sight design Simplerearsight004

    Here is the sight picture. The top of the tape is aligned with top of front sight with tip on target. Later I will replace tape with white lines for different distances.

    simple rear sight design Simplerearsight004
    Here's the picture of the sight picture
    simple rear sight design Simplerearsight003

    Perhaps not authentic but works very well.

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    Last edited by Todd the archer on Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add correct picture)
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    Post by Ivo Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:05 pm

    Pretty cool guys, massive, but cool. Smile

    I've been sick with the same question and promised to come back on it...

    I've searched high and low in my near by hardware stores for a little decorative hinge that could be modified into a sight and then stopped by Lowes and found what I was looking for. It's been laying in the pocket of my pants ever since, only yesterday I went on a though search and found it again.

    It's one of those little hinge locks for small boxes and such, pretty cool stuff...

    simple rear sight design Photo4

    I doubt it's a good sight right out of the box and will need the sighting scale gap filed to accommodate a greater range of distances or holes drilled with a micro bit if a slider isn't to be used.

    Thinking about it, there was this build a long time ago on the Russian forum where a guy built this little crossbow with a flip up sight. You guys have got to see this! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    simple rear sight design 6b3c2218e1bb

    The good picture of the sight up close was lost, but there were actually numbers stamped on the flip-up plank for various distances and the slider with a pin hole is aligned moved up and down snapping in place (thanks to the little notches cut next to numbers)...cool stuff to say the least. Smile

    Happy building.

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    Post by Basilisk120 Mon Jul 04, 2011 4:31 pm

    Todd, That is clever, it looks a little more solid than my design.

    Ivo, Those are nice pictures. I like the re-purposing of the latch.



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    Post by jeep Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:00 pm

    My different rear sight. The Chinese Han.

    simple rear sight design Img_0616
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    Post by jeep Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:02 pm

    The medieval
    simple rear sight design Img_0617
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    Post by jeep Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:07 pm

    The late "renaissance" and schnneper

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    Post by jeep Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:11 pm

    XIX ° target crossbow

    simple rear sight design Img_0619

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