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    High draw weight, long draw length prod?

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    kiltedcelt
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    High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kiltedcelt on Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:10 pm

    Okay, so I might have screwed the proverbial pooch. I purchased a 150-190lb prod from SloBows which has a maximum draw length of 11 1/2 inches. One of the states (Colorado), where I might hunt with this crossbow says in their regulations that a crossbow must have a minimum draw weight of 125lb and a draw length of a minimum of 14" as measured from the front of the bow to where the string is anchored. This would effectively make my proposed hunting crossbow 3 1/2" too short in draw length. Where can I get a prod with a minimum draw length of 14" and draw weight higher than 125lb?
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by Geezer on Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:19 pm

    Elkridge laminated prods are probably available in a suitable size... or you could take a look at Excalibur's prods.  They're fairly long and reputable.  Geezer.
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kiltedcelt on Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:22 pm

    Geezer,
    I couldn't turn up anything for either of those sites you mentioned. Elkridge gets me nothing related to crossbows, and Excalibur seems to only turn up complete xbows, not any separate parts. I was doing a search while awaiting some replies and turned up some fiberglass limbs on a few different sites within the weight range I want, but no way of knowing how much draw length they'll tolerate. I called Colorado DNR to get a clarification on their regulations - ie. is the 14" rule based on from the prod to where the string anchors, or from the actual front of the crossbow (possibly farther out than the prod), to where the string anchors. I got a muddled clarification relayed by the receptionist from the head DNR enforcement agent who was out in the field. She said I could email him a detailed query and he'd get back to me as soon as he could. I included an MS Paint doctored photo showing where various draw length measurements could be taken on a crossbow and asked if he could clarify where the measurements are made from. I'm hoping like hell that it's from the actual front of the crossbow stock to the string anchor point versus from the prod to the anchor point. If it's from the prod, then I'm screwed. I'm going to have to completely rethink what I've been planning out in my head, depending on what type of prod I'll need to use instead of the steel one from SloBows.
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kiltedcelt on Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:54 pm

    Just got off the phone with Gary at SloBows. He's got some other prods that aren't listed on his site yet. They're replacements for some commercial bows and might meet the draw weight/draw length requirements but he'll have to string them and put them on the scale, then let me know if he's got anything that will work. I also have an email out to the head enforcement guy from the CO DNR so I'll be waiting to hear from him about exactly how they're taking that measurement on any given crossbow. All of that will determine what I need to do in terms of building my crossbow. Unfortunately, my hands are tied right now as far as designing anything goes. I have to get this business of draw length sorted out before I can actually begin designing the bow.

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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by Hermit on Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:41 pm

    unless I'm missing something"a minimum draw length of 14 ins. from the front of the bow, to the point where the string is anchored"(the nut I would think)would seem to put your slo-bow on the money.Brace height would be around 4 ins.,leaving you with a 10 ins. draw.
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kiltedcelt on Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:15 pm

    Hermit,

    Nope. I've talked at length with Gary from SloBows and he assumes a 3" brace height with about 8 more inches to draw. The total draw length from the front of the bow to the lock is supposed to be no longer than 11 1/2". I'll be waiting to hear what Gary might come up with and whether any of those longer prods can reach the appropriate draw weight. He should be able to let me know by sometime near the end of the week. Hopefully I won't have to wait too long to get a clarification from CO DNR regarding the regulations either.

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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by Hermit on Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:29 pm

    I bought a Barnet jaguar prod a couple of months back,it's rated at 175lbs.,I live in Canada,where there is'nt a lot of service for crossbow parts.I don't know the draw length,but the barnet website will most likely give you the specs,failing that,any seller that advertises the Barnet Jaguar crossbow will probably have them.
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by Hermit on Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:30 pm

    Just checked out a Barnet seller's website,seem it has a "16ins. powerstroke",not sure what that means in terms of draw length,maybe someone else on here does,16ins. seems a helluva long draw length to me............... 
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kiltedcelt on Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:48 pm

    Hermit,

    I believe the power stroke generally refers to the distance that the string is pulled beyond what the brace height is. Perhaps someone with more experience like Geezer will chime in. If that 16" power stroke is the case then I could certainly use that as an alternative prod. It's all academic though until I hear back from SloBows as to whether he has anything that will work. If he doesn't then it's back to the drawing board at which point I'll be looking at stuff like a Barnett prod.
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by Todd the archer on Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:45 am

    The Barnett's website is inaccurate. The panzer V has about a 12" or 12 1/2" power stroke about 2" more than their older models. But if measured the way CO DNRdoes you could say it is 16".

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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kiltedcelt on Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:05 am

    Well, it'll be interesting to see just what CO DNR measures given the somewhat vague language of their regulations. I hope I'll hear back from that guy today. On the other hand, Gary at SloBows did say that he had those two newer prods that weren't listed on his site yet and were intended to be replacements for a Barnett crossbow and I believe an Excalibur. Most of his prods are about 28" or tip to tip but these were supposed to be 34" or longer. He already has a couple 34" models listed on the website but the draw weights are way low. One maxs out at 110lb while the other maxs out at 75lb. I think the other ones he was talking about he seemed fairly certain at least one of those would go as high as 125lb or more. I wish I could get all this crap sorted out sooner rather than later so that I could get started on working on my stock. However, I can't really do anything until I know how much draw length I need to work with and that is going to dictate what I can do with the lock and where the trigger, etc. has to go. Can't do anything until I know what prod I'm using. However, if it comes to using a Barnett prod, I still can't seem to find any specific place to buy just a replacement prod, and then which one? Do I buy the replacement Panzer V prod? Another one? What about Excalibur? Are there any options for steel prods in this draw weight with a "long" draw length, other than SloBows? This is all rather frustrating.
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by Todd the archer on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:41 am

    First let me say something about Excalibur limbs. They are a two piece limb meant to be bolted onto a riser section, not sure that is what you are looking for. 

    Barnett prods can be bought here:

    http://www.thecrossbowstore.com/Barnett-Panzer-V-Prod-String-and-Nockends-p/barnett-4088.htm

    Elkridge stop making prods but may still have some in stock, give them a call and check. I have used them and they give good performance.


    Another option is Arrow Precision prods. 175 pounds.


    http://shop.arrow-precision.com/p/fury-ii-replacement-limb?s=part_number&part_number_d=ASC&part_number_c=part_number&t=1&i=all

    Keep in mind although the steel prods may be more durable they do make the crossbow heavier and front heavy in particular.

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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kiltedcelt on Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:58 am

    Todd,
    Thanks for the input. I've got those sites bookmarked now in case I need to go back. Gary will be checking his prods on Friday and will let me know if either of them will work. I'll take it from there.
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kenh on Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:10 am

    Call Colorado DNR and get a ruling on how they are measuring the draw length of a crossbow prod -- from the back, from the belly, or from the at rest string to the lock...
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by Hotspur on Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:30 am

    Reg book aside:

    I'm not sure if you have compared glass to steel from the standpoint of the purpose of your bow?  Considering stored energy glass is much more efficient than steel.  

    The short power stroke steel prod will probable fling a heavy bolt about 200 fps.  That will mean needing a fairly close shot, or a slow witted deer and practically speaking tree stand or blind hunting.

    I suspect you will get deer hunting benefit from a longer power stroke and a glass prod. Longer power strokes are a good thing.  It will produce a faster, flatter trajectory with a lighter bolt.  In my opinion, this makes up for a little less kinetic energy at the target.  But as kinetic energy is a result of mass and speed the loss may be negligible.

    As long as your kinetic energy is at least 50 foot pounds you are good for deer, regulations not withstanding.

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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by Hermit on Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:08 am

    My sentiments exactly Hotspur.People build crossbows for a few different reasons,expense I think,being the most common.When it comes to expense,fibreglass wins every time.Fibreglass prods are readily available and reasonably priced.
                                           If you want to be a purist,and make everything yourself,the techniques for building fibreglass limbs,are easy to master,and the tooling required simple,and easy to make at minimal expense.Steel on the other hand,is hard to work,requires a level of knowledge and experience that few possess,and sophisticated and expensive equipment.Keeping in mind that fibreglass has proven superior qualities to steel,along with these other factors,to me the choice is obvious,but of course,it is a matter of choice.
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kenh on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:43 pm

    Hi KiltedCelt;

    Another voice here for fiberglass rather than metal.  There are two kinds of fiberglass prods....
    1.  those made from several thin laminations of wood with 'glass on the back and belly like a modern recurve or straight bow
    2.  those made from solid fiberglass like the one shown in my avatar picture.  

    Fiberglass type #1 isn't hard, doesn't require a bunch of $$ (maybe $75), but does take some skill and experience to get a prod in the power and draw range you want.

    Fiberglass type #2 requires no abilities other than using a hacksaw to saw the sticks to length and cut pin nocks in the ends.  My 250+# prod is 28" long and has a measured 16" draw from the back of the prod to the string catch.  It cost me all of $7 for the prod and IIRC 14 for the custom made string.  Tt's made from two pieces of  1/4" x 3/4" fiberglass chainlink fence tension bar (28" and 14"), available from my local independent fence supplier (not a company that installs fences, a company that sells fence, posts, etc.).  Check out my laminated pin lock posts here.   Can't find fiberglass tension bar locally?  Drop me a note...
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kiltedcelt on Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:59 pm

    I thought I'd replied to this, but I see there are few new replies from earlier in the week. Guess I forgot to reply a few days back when I got home from work to the real computer versus using the phone to reply. Anyway, for this particular project I wanted metal for a specific reason. If you look at some cool old 1860s and later guns you'll see a lot of hand etching on the nicer more expensive rifles. I wanted to build a hunting crossbow that while having a rifle stock with a somewhat modern appearance would at the same time evoke some of that late 1800s decorative detail through some etching on the metal prod. In addition to that, the lock plates were also to feature some etching as well. I won't be using hand etching but rather will be using either electrochemical etching or just strictly chemical etching. I intend to experiment with both methods using some metal scraps and determine the best result given the types of details I'm intending to put onto these various metal pieces. Sure a fiberglass prod would be more efficient but in this case there are reasons other than strictly efficiency for choosing metal over other materials. I'm a woodworker first and a target shooter second, and a wannabe hunter third. Also as far as hunting goes, I intend to hunt with my all-wood longbows as well and due to the inability to hold a shot long term (as you would with a compound), and dealing with a bow that is sometimes as long as 72" nock to nock, I have to hunt from the ground and use skill to stalk within shooting range of my quarry, which typically wouldn't be any farther out than about 30 to 40 yards or so. This is well within the range of efficiency for a metal-prod crossbow. I intend to make some other crossbows and in fact I'll probably be laminating up my own prods because I'd like to use clear glass and choose some really decorative woods for the limb laminations. Again, looking more for a combination of art and functionality. If I wanted pure functionality I'd just go and buy a crossbow with a camo finish and a red dot scope and be done with it. Instead, I'm more about the journey than necessarily only the final destination. Also, there are plenty of folks making functional crossbows that look nice but aren't terribly decorative. Even many of the decorative bows I've seen, both modern and historical replicas are not nearly as decorative as most of our examples of the highly decorated bows of the 15th, 16th, and 17th centuries. I'd like to establish myself as an artisan creating crossbows that are inspired by that decorative artistic tradition rather than being purely functional.
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by kiltedcelt on Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:07 pm

    So, in my comments above, I addressed the reasons why I've chosen metal over fiberglass for the prod on this bow I'm building. As an update, and for anyone else interested in metal prods with a longer draw length and higher draw weight, I finally have an answer from Gary at SloBows:

    Hi Matt     The results are in  My SB BB( Barnett replacement prod pulls 165# @14.25"   SB104 Pulls 77# @ 15" and The SB 114 Pulls approx. 120# @ 15"  The SB BB has more tip rise than the other 2. I have bow irons to fit all three. I would suggest not precutting the
    prod slot till you get the prod and check the tip rise.    Gary


    So, there you have it. They're not up on his website yet, but Gary does in fact have some prods that have longer draw lengths than the standard 11 1/2" max that is on most of his other prods. However, only his Barnett replacement draws enough weight to meet the hunting regs for big game, at least by Colorado standards. This should also be a lesson to the rest of us to check our local regulations and make sure that our home made bows meet them. You don't want to be out on a Medieval hunt with some buddies and then get busted because you were supposed to be using a crossbow with a longer draw length. I couldn't get any confirmation on WHY Colorado requires a minimum draw length of 14" except maybe to surmise that it's to rule out or prevent folks from using things like pistol crossbows while hunting big game. It's probably not an issue if you're hunting with an off-the-shelf crossbow as they probably all have minimum draw lengths that meet or exceed that 14" standard. However, once you start delving into building your own bows, you've created something of an unknown to game wardens and the like and you better be prepared to defend your design and construction and be damn sure it meets the regulations of the areas you'll be hunting in.
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by Gnome on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:04 am

    Thanks for sharing the info on the SB BB prod- I was wanting something a little different for my next build and this item fit the bill nicely. I just ordered two of them!
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    Re: High draw weight, long draw length prod?

    Post by Todd the archer on Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:43 pm

    Forgot to mention this earlier. If you are set on a steel prod buy an old Horton steel force crossbow. You can find them on ebay. Anyway they are steel with a woven nylon sheath over it. Draw 150 pounds at a total draw from prod to string catch of 15". Here is a picture of one mounted on a medieval I made.


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