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    Ottoman crossbows?

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    mac
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    Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by mac on Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:35 pm

    A fellow over on Myarmoury has posted some pics of some interesting crossbows in this thread  http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=282290#282290

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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by kenh on Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:20 am

    Very interesting.  Looks like some form of stonebow, although they are shown in context with arrows/bolts.  Obviously some idiot put the prods in the tillers backwards!  The prods look like pretty typical Turkish bows of the period.  The ratchet-crank mechanism is neat.
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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by Todd the archer on Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:40 pm

    I know the bows are incorrect and the crank system looks cool, but how does the string catch work?

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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by MRobin on Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:29 pm

    Looks cool indeed, but I'm pretty sure the crank system can't handle much.
    I am tempted to think that these crossbows are for children, who could not load even relatively weak bows without some sort of help. And cranking is fun.

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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by MRobin on Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:33 pm

    kenh wrote:Very interesting.  Looks like some form of stonebow, although they are shown in context with arrows/bolts.  Obviously some idiot put the prods in the tillers backwards!  The prods look like pretty typical Turkish bows of the period.  The ratchet-crank mechanism is neat.

    stonebow, I don't think so, there is a groove in the nut for the arrow shaft to slip in

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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by HeroSK on Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:44 pm

    It was me asking there. About cocking, it instantly caused me to remember a sketch in the book Bellifortis by Kyeser in 1405. In my opinion, the back side had a ratcheted drum that receives the belt with a hook just like below image.

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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by hullutiedemies on Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:31 am

    I would not call these childrens bows. More like elderly gentlemens bows. A comfortable way to shoot heavyweight Turkish flight bow. With low gear windlass cocking while sitting horseback or lawn chair is quick and effortless.

    Those locks look like they should handle 150-200#. With those couple feet power strokes even 50-80 pounders would be quite serious weapons.

    Sort of victorian pse tac-15.


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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by MRobin on Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:21 am

    Really not sure about 150-200#, there is no steel plate to strengthen the wood around the ratchet mechanism, that is especially critical for the little pawl I think, unless the wood is particularly resistant... But yeah with such power stroke (though we have no measurement) even 50 pounds, with a light fast composite bow, make for some serious shots.
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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by mac on Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:34 am

    It seems to me that the limiting factor on these crossbows is the bearing surface of the nut fingers.  They are quite thin.  So....perhaps no more than 100pounds.



    Given the rather long stroke, and overall light weight of the construction, I wonder if the bows they are currently fitted with are not just about right.  They are mounted backward, of course,  but otherwise they fit OK.   I am thinking that these tillers cum spanners might be intended to be used with something that is essentially a hand bow.



    They would make a good project and might well be wicked-fun to shoot.


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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by hullutiedemies on Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:42 am

    MRobin wrote:Really not sure about 150-200#, there is no steel plate to strengthen the wood around the ratchet mechanism,

    Siyahs of Turkish hand bows made to draw 100-150# are about same thickness by string nock (guesstimating measurements) . And bow tips have to handle shock of acceleration. While trigger and spannig mechanism are only under static load. Plus to my experience even cheap conifer lumber should take 150# with that thickness.
    But whatever, a 19th century crossbow would be most likely intended for sport. So bows would not need to be too strong.

    Anyway. Notice the similarity with "english arrow bow" , that stuckinthemud just found from Welsh museum ( https://www.flickr.com/photos/42786673@N02/13909506726/ )
    http://thearbalistguild.forumotion.com/t1195-anywhere-near-me-where-i-can-see-medieval-crossbow#11292 .
    This type of long drawing crossbows may have been quite popular couple hundred years ago.

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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by HeroSK on Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:23 am

    Pictures are belong to someone from archer group in Facebook and according to he the bows are have no relation with tillers.Even though he tried to warn museum authorities about direction of bows, they complained about lack of enough space in glass case. Apparently, museum personnel just put some ordinary bows on stocks without knowing they did it in wrong way. So while thinking about crossbows the bows should be dismissed.



    The question, is there any similar tiller crossbows with rifle but and a long stock?

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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by MRobin on Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:00 am

    Nerd Flintstone wrote:
    MRobin wrote:Really not sure about 150-200#, there is no steel plate to strengthen the wood around the ratchet mechanism,

    Siyahs of Turkish hand bows made to draw 100-150# are about same thickness by string nock (guesstimating measurements) . And bow tips have to handle shock of acceleration. While trigger and spannig mechanism are only under static load. Plus to my experience even cheap conifer lumber should take 150# with that thickness.

    Yeah I don't know for sure, it seems ok for the reel, but the pawl the way it is placed would really want to split the wood upward I think. Maybe wrong. Anyway... 
    To me winding devices are not fun, in essence, they are just useful if hand spanning, or goatfoot or cranequin aren't sufficient to draw the string. Last thought that just came to my mind : I wonder how thin the winding string has to be to fit on the reel without getting all messed after a few turns (and given the draw length I guess it takes more than a few turns to reach the nut). Maybe another limiting factor?
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    Re: Ottoman crossbows?

    Post by hullutiedemies on Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:01 am

    I like rope winding devices.
    They are smaller and lighter than goatfoot or cranequin. And unlike hand spanning can be operated while sitting or walking or even lying in prone position.

    Also it is possible those windlasses may not have had ropes but bands like winches in modern boat trailers. These would be far less eager to get tangled.

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