Crossbows - Everything about Building, Modding, and Using your Crossbow Gear

Latest topics

» Beware of Alchem
by Archer46176 Yesterday at 3:33 pm

» How to measure and cut leather for prod
by Celtic Archer Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:56 pm

» Crossbow with built in lever?
by John Edgerton Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:38 pm

» Of Bows and Torsion Engines
by JacobL Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:03 pm

» Early Lever and pin Crossbow
by topfmine Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:56 am

» Crusader crossbow
by topfmine Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:53 am

» First Efforts
by rickraedeke Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:25 am

» aluminum prod
by Phil Abrahams Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:38 am

» First whitetail buck taken with medieval crossbow
by Phil Abrahams Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:38 am

» Airsoft Crossbow
by JacobL Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:11 pm

» Questions about steel prod specs
by JacobL Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:25 pm

» Faking a medieval composite crossbow prod.
by JacobL Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:13 pm

» Airsoft Bow
by JacobL Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:56 pm

» Hello All!
by JacobL Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:54 pm

» Padre Island Bow
by Geezer Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:14 pm

» Blocked pictures by Photobucket
by Crossbowmen Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:33 pm

» Geezer website?
by Geezer Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:01 pm

» Could I get advise on order of operations?
by Bs1110101 Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:02 am

» Renaissance Sporting crossbow
by chaz Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:22 am

» Welcome! Welcome! Welcome!
by Agniznag Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:26 pm

» The Arbalist Guild - Around the World
by Agniznag Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:56 am

» opinions please
by Geezer Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:19 pm

» Hello all!
by Tarzan65 Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:54 am

» Yet another one
by Daniel Levesque Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:37 am

» Renaissance peep sight
by kenh Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:48 am


    Why does all new inventions die?

    Share
    avatar
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 43
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer on Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:03 pm

    The Strizh, Gearhead, Twinbow, Technarm and now it seems that even Talisman Mantis crossbow has disapeared from the market.

    Yes, I know all the oficial things you can read about them on various forums's, but I want to know the real secrets why they fail. Has the usual crossbow makers have sutch a firm grip on their dealers so no one is willing to let them in? Is the dealer to get rid of their bonuses or the right to be the only one in neigbourhod to sell a particular brand if they let a Newbee in?

    We all now that Monney needed for production located in the US market. The reason is determined by the laws prohobiting hunting in many European nations. We also know a hunter is more than willing to pay the normal fee for a rifle.

    It is in mourning, I see that Phil has not updated his Facebook page since the beginning of November. Have the new limbs broke? The teams change in england? Run out of production-money? Accuracy Problems?

    Now I would be glad to enlighted your opinions. (Excuse my rotten English. I'm from Sweden)

    Is there anything we can do to support inventors in any way? I love them.
    avatar
    kenh
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 727
    Join date : 2012-08-03
    Age : 69
    Location : Living Aboard a Sailboat in Fort Myers, FL

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by kenh on Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:35 pm

    I suspect the problem is basic supply and demand and cost of production versus price you can sell/buy for and make a profit.

    1.  Face it there is not a HUGE demand for crossbows of quality.  Lots of demand for cheap Chinese almost toys but not for serious quality crossbows.
    2. The cost of the "tools to make the tools to make the product" is not cheap.  Molds and CNC mills, and laser cutters, etc. are very expensive.  So are the wages for skilled craftsmen to use those tools.  That makes the cost to build 1 crossbow (or 100 thousand) crossbows very high.
    3.  Because the cost to make a high tech crossbow is high, and the makers wants profit over the cost to make, the selling cost is high.
    4.  If the selling cost is too high for the buyers, few people buy and the idea dies.

    c sitas
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 427
    Join date : 2012-11-24

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by c sitas on Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:40 pm

    Like what has been said already. I don't believe the average person has any conception of what it takes to make something go. Most often lacking is" Money" . It
    takes a lot of it and the trouble is ,that's what's almost always lacking.To get through the lean times is where the challenge lays.The product might be good as gold,but it takes money to hold on until the product starts to move.This holds true since the beginning of time, sadly.
    avatar
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 43
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer on Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:33 am

    OK but why doesn´t one of the today-producers pick up the new ideas and make a 500 fps-bow that takes over the market? Is the problem that the best ideas is protected by patents and there´s no income big enough to feed the inovator? On the regular market it seems like the only big steps forward has been the compound bows and later the reverse draw technology. The rest seems only to be the yearly minor changes without real capacity-steps forward.

    c sitas
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 427
    Join date : 2012-11-24

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by c sitas on Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:33 am

    yes, I think your thoughts on the patents are right on . To start an adventure like that in marketing ,you'd certainly have to have protection.You mentioned before that some of these designs were of very high tech. Real life is dog eat dog now days.
    avatar
    kenh
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 727
    Join date : 2012-08-03
    Age : 69
    Location : Living Aboard a Sailboat in Fort Myers, FL

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by kenh on Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:46 pm

    A producer who 'picks up a new idea' would have to pay a patent licensing fee from the inventor.  That adds another level of cost to the manufacturing cost.
    avatar
    Jason D
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 33
    Join date : 2010-01-14
    Location : Alberta, Canada

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Jason D on Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:38 pm

    There are other considerations. Once you start dealing with hyper-velocity crossbows you start getting into reliability and noise issues. If  crossing the 500fps mark you have just lost the Canadian market as any projectile moving at 500+fps is treated as a firearm and requires a firearm licence. I believe other areas also have velocity restrictions regarding crossbows and hunting.
     Hunters are, in a way, the most conservative bunch you will meet, the most revered rifle action is the Mauser M98 and its derivatives, synthetic stocks took twenty years to become accepted, and so on. Now you want to bring in a radically different design to a group that still not has wholly accepted the crossbow as a hunting tool? Very hard sell there.

    c sitas
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 427
    Join date : 2012-11-24

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by c sitas on Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:03 pm

    NOW, you are starting to understand the system. Ah yes. Hardly any one has a 400 plus machine let alone a 500 rocket.Where did I lay my spear! Have fun anyway guys.

    Rizzar
    Workshop Savvy

    Did you see my tool collection?


    Workshop SavvyDid you see my tool collection?

    Posts : 192
    Join date : 2012-08-11
    Location : Germany

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Rizzar on Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:40 pm

    Supporting Kenh´s first argument: you need a market for those new designs.
    Even with customers that own high quality crossbows.
    Not everybody who owns a crossbow instantly buys a new design that is some little % "better" than the old one.

    Difficult to get into profitable numbers.
    It is not the automobile industry that forces renovation every couple of years with a high number of customers.
    avatar
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 43
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer on Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:17 am

    Thank´s for interesting answers. You are truly right about relate to the automobile industry where customers are many but developement still goes slow because of big costs for production changes and the customers habit to be wanting slow changes.

    Maybe the only alternative is the defence market? Stanislav Pasquale /Tecnarm once wrote that there are already existing and non-oficial 500 fps crossbows on the military market. Anyone who knows more about that? Are crossbows accepted in the Geneva convention as a weapon?

    The inventor of Strizh is also inventor of a couple of other bows named "satan" etc, and some of them shall also be/been of secret use in the former soviet defence forces. Would be interesting to know more about that.

    Even Phil Abrahms of Talisman Mantis has said something about getting inspired by something in the SAS I guess? 

    I´m also specially sorry for that Warhammer1´s inswinger concept died out. 

    As a former salesman in the industry I´m interested booth in the technical inventions and the market issues. Maybe the best way to develope a new idea is this forum and accept there´s no way you can earn a living on new creative thinking. It´s probably better to just have fun here and hope someone with economical muscles,in the future pic up the ideas and put them in to production. Just the creative thinking is wath I myself likes most.
    avatar
    Anatine Duo
    Techno Weeny

    Lets put a laser on it!!!


    Techno WeenyLets put a laser on it!!!

    Posts : 58
    Join date : 2013-10-07
    Location : Muskoka, Canada

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Anatine Duo on Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:22 am

    maybe the creative thinking has to go into marketing instead of enjoying the workbench

    something for discussion?
    avatar
    Todd the archer
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 581
    Join date : 2010-02-25
    Age : 55
    Location : sellersville,pa.

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Todd the archer on Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:15 am

    Anatine I think you hit the nail right on the head!

    We need to meet peoples needs with our ideas and not just make something new and different.
    avatar
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 43
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer on Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:25 pm

    Off course peoples needs and ideas must meet but the existing limb-technology has reach it´s limits acording to Stanislav/Tecnarm. The need for shoting longer distances with accuracy is still there so new ways for producing more speed, is a must to meet this need. I think the big problem is to do it as it looks like it´s a normal crossbow. The one who has come closest is Phil/Talisman Mantis wich look more like a crossbow than the reverse draw models. Add to that the beautiful engravment Phil also is famous for. Most people don´t even understand how the weapon works. My guess is that the limbs are too heavy and breaks because the lack of slow speed reduction. 
    The other main problem I see is keeping accuracy in high speed mode and timing-systems of limbs.

    Anyone who knows how small (or big) the crossbow market is?
    avatar
    Anatine Duo
    Techno Weeny

    Lets put a laser on it!!!


    Techno WeenyLets put a laser on it!!!

    Posts : 58
    Join date : 2013-10-07
    Location : Muskoka, Canada

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Anatine Duo on Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:21 am

    The market feels small, even here where they are legal for hunting and firearms license is somewhat expensive.

    The hunting shops here are loaded with models of xbow.  Knowledge of xbows is low in the market... a guy at work bought one and couldn't tell me if it was compound or not... I asked if it had pulleys but he didn't know.  Even our small town walmart has 3 models of tactical crossbow.

    The mainstream market is moving toward tactical crossbows, factories are designing jagged bits to make them look like sci-fi space ships then paint black or digicam.

    Personally I upgraded from a cheapo asian recurve (which brought me my first archery-season deer) to an Excal Axiom because it was robust, low mass, and improved trajectory over the 180fps I had been using. and not too expensive.  Can't justify buying another... but I shall build.

    If I were marketing xbow style launcher to get new tech out there  I wouldn't try to compete directly with major players.  Many little car companies tried that and failed.  High Country Archery offers 400fps vertical bows and hardly anybody has heard of them even in the comparitivly large USA market.

     Most people I know who hunt with xbow do not shoot for pleasure, so providing a pleasurable shooting experience can open a market.  Preppers are another possibility, they might want a compact field-serviceable model.  Non-expensive ammo could help, since plinking with fancy carbons is expensive. Hunting season is short; it is smarter to sell 365 days a year.  Sell to wives... I think crossbows are sexy (and husbands who make major purchases without discussion are not)

    You got me thinking...
    avatar
    Todd the archer
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 581
    Join date : 2010-02-25
    Age : 55
    Location : sellersville,pa.

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Todd the archer on Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:29 am

    When it comes to marketing you either must fill a need that is unfulfilled (lighter, faster, smaller) or create a need. The latter takes some creativity. For example crossbow were fairly obscure until they started legalizing them for the hunting community. Finding new markets like said earlier (preppers) is the key.
    avatar
    Todd the archer
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 581
    Join date : 2010-02-25
    Age : 55
    Location : sellersville,pa.

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Todd the archer on Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:32 am

    Should add you can appeal to a persons emotions as well. Create the lure of hunting like William Tell and the market for medieval styles will increase.

    c sitas
    Crossbow Junkie

    I live here!


    Crossbow JunkieI live here!

    Posts : 427
    Join date : 2012-11-24

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by c sitas on Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:47 am

    You know, another aspect that hasn't been mentioned is liability. I can see where triggers could make a big "if", in the business. It would only take once.  Just another thought .Insurance companies can be the next thing to insane .  All these little leaks in the bucket and pretty soon there is no water left.
    avatar
    hullutiedemies
    Workshop Savvy

    Did you see my tool collection?


    Workshop SavvyDid you see my tool collection?

    Posts : 177
    Join date : 2012-07-03
    Location : Fennoscandia

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by hullutiedemies on Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:40 am

    Oppenheimer wrote:OK but why doesn´t one of the today-producers pick up the new ideas and make a 500 fps-bow that takes over the market? Is the problem that the best ideas is protected by patents

    Best idea is not protected by patents.
    A plain medieval high brace-short stroke desingn with modern syntethic bow - hollow carbon tips etc. can easily make past 150m/s. - Add a long goat foot and quarter ton draw weight is as easy to span as modern 150# compounds.

    But if you invest money for marketing and succeed create demand for unpatentable product, the market will be quickly flooded with cheap Chinese clones.



    Concerning bolt speed
    There is one practical problem when increasing speed over 120m/s (400fps imperial) : the energy a customer can produce with one muscle-stroke is about couple hundred Joule (~ 27g 120m/s ). Multi-stroke spanning mechanims OTOH are clumsy to use and possibly also illegal for hunting in some market areas.
    And since arrow is momentum penetrator, relying on its sharp point and mass rather than velocity and energy, there is a practical limit how light projectiles archery hunters are willing to use.

    Of course sport shooting crossbow can be build to shoot faster light weight projectiles. But then it starts competing with air rifles- A competition that crossbows allready lost once in 19th century.
    avatar
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 43
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer on Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:38 pm

    Multi-stroke spanning mechanims OTOH 

    What is this? I don't understand? Neutral

    Hermit
    Workshop Savvy

    Did you see my tool collection?


    Workshop SavvyDid you see my tool collection?

    Posts : 245
    Join date : 2013-09-10

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Hermit on Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:04 am

    Multi stroke spanning mechanism..................A crossbow cocking device example,a cranequin(winch)
                                                             Hermit.
    avatar
    Oppenheimer
    Fresh Blood

    Doesn't mean
    I'm new to crossbows


    Fresh Blood Doesn't meanI'm new to crossbows

    Posts : 43
    Join date : 2012-10-25
    Location : Scandinavia

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Oppenheimer on Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:07 pm

    Thank's. I thought it was some kind of two-stage spanner mechanism or something.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Why does all new inventions die?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:55 am