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    Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

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    Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by globalmark on Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:06 pm

    Hi Guys 

    I am Making first cross bow and been thinking about the trigger - i have read lots Info  But bit lost as some articles seem to indicate making the trigger and mech from 1/4" (6mm) aluminium or brass (etc) - where others seem to all have the rollernut or a claw where the Bolt will sit between ..

    If all made from 1/4" stock where does the bolt Lie - just infront of the string holder or beside touching the string - 
    is anyone has any links or pictures of this style where bolt lies appriciated 

    I understand with roller nut or claw goes Inbetween and touched the string but what about this other designs - 

    Also whats the pros and cons or each type as the flat made stock seems easier to make and would make the complete mech much thinner. ?

    Also does anyone have a simple trigger design suggestion (making wooden stock with laminated Bamboo prod) - no idea the draw weight but should not be to high well under 100lbs i would guess ..

    any info or links appriciated , Have read everything i can find about triggers But no one brings up this specific question as far as i can find.
     
    Thanks Mark

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by c sitas on Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:09 pm

    On your question about locks. There is one called a pin lock . Picture this. Where the string is held at full draw, you would drill a vertical pin into,and through the stock to hold the string. It lets go of the string by means of a lever operated from the bottom of the stock. The lever just pulls the pin straight down and lets go of the string.  It's probbally one of the first types of trigger to be used.

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by globalmark on Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:59 am

    HI Sitas 
    Thanks for the reply - yes I understand the Pin lock one - but if you google crossbow triggers etc - there are a few plans making the parts from 1/4" or similar material (therefore would not have a claw thing so bolt could not go between) - so how does this type work ? and what are pro's and cons of it - as seems would be much easier to make from only 1/4" or similar material instead of a claw type ??
    thanks

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by stuckinthemud1 on Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:20 am

    There is another type, a flip-up trigger mounted on top of the stock, Todd has a video on youtube - I think its an early hunting bow? The whole thing is beautifully simple and its on my to-do list!

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by stuckinthemud1 on Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:25 am

    found it - eleventh century hunting bow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk5drua6sK4
    admin - if posting a direct link contravenes forum rules I apologise and will delete if need-be

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by chaz on Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:31 am

    Mark,
            Suggest you go to search at the top of this website and type in "crossbow trigger" and
        see what you find .... maybe helpful.

    Chaz

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by c sitas on Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:18 am

    Called a clap lock I think . Todd the archer made one.Captures the string ,not the arrow . Would hi the arrow same as the pin lock. The bolt or arrow would be held in position to be struck by the string.

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by globalmark on Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:28 am



    Hi guys this is sort of thing I mean and there seems a few out there , Not a push up pin and not a claw with Bolt inbetween a normal Mechanism but just made from say 1/4 metal - 
    But what happens with the bolt I presume it goes infront and after the string comes off the mechanism strikes the bolt - so whats the point in a Claw where Bolt is inbetween the mechanism ??

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by c sitas on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:36 am

    The arrow or bolt, is held in posistion to be hit by the string. A simple flex finger is all that amounts to.As a point of interest here,an achers D loop can be used on the string. This eliminates some string wear, and, you can eliminate the flex finger by using an arrow nock and snapping it right on to the string. I shoot with this method. Not very old timy though, although it really helps accuracy.

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by globalmark on Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:35 am

    Hi Sitas 

    So with this method of trigger found another one - of same type ,
    the string just sits a bit behind the bold which is held with the flexiable finger and strikes the bolt (and can add D-loop on string ((yes seen these))

    - so which is better this type of trigger this one or the one with the claw / or roller nut ?? as these seem easier to make ..
    Thanks Mark 

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by c sitas on Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:00 am

    Depends on the time period you want to build for. I don't know for positive sure but, the style you just showed is of modern times. I never really researched this style as it it used on present day bows, although I don't believe it's used on commerical bows.This style simulates a hand held archery release. I've used them for the past 40 some years. That's why I use that style for my shooting.  Better---- that's in the eye of the beholder.
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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by Geezer on Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:54 am

    The lock in the illustration has two potential problems: First, the edges that contact the bowstring appear to be quite sharp... unless they are rounded, they will cut the serving and then start on the bowstring itself.  Second, your 'claw' is a single piece. That will hold the bowstring okay, but it necessitates leaving the bolt slightly ahead of the string.  So the string will strike the bolt's butt at speed.  That's hard on the serving and hard on the bolt.  If you built a similar claw, wider, with a slot for the bolt's butt, it would launch the bolt without striking it.  You get a quieter release and less wear to string and bolt.  That's why most of the better quality medieval bows used a double-clawed roller-nut for a release.  Geezer.
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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by Geezer on Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:03 am

    Of course a double-clawed lock is heavier, which makes it slightly slower to release, so you want to make it from the lightest available material that is sufficiently strong for the load.  Everything requires compromise.  If you want easy to make and a quick release, the above lock should do that.  If you hate repairing/making bowstrings and bolts, or want a super-quiet bow, and don't mind taking a bit longer in fabrication, the lock illustrated probably isn't what you want.
    ps: you can use aluminum for the lock parts, but there are several drawbacks.  First, though it's soft, aluminum is suprisingly 'sticky' and difficult to work.  Second, you'll need steel for a trigger and the sear-point on the claw.  Aluminum will wear too fast.  Third, aluminum oxides very rapidly.  You will end up with the grey oxide all over the bowstring and top of the stock.    Geezer.

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by globalmark on Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:56 am

    HI Geezer 

    Thanks for that answer I think you have given me what i needed to Know - perfect Thanks 

    This morning I have actually come up with a design combining the one above and couple other bits I have seen - but doesnt have a Claw , will be drop in Module so can change/remove for service etc .

    I figured I can make it like this THINNER to start without a claw and then can widen the slot in the stock at a later date if needs be easier to take wood out then add wood - yes Love to make everything , so making new strings, 2nd lock etc is actually more fun then the shooting for me . 

    will attach Pic of design from mdf - will make steel or Aluminium - but seems to work with Basic Safety Catch (need a spring and lock that somehow) 
    - Any Thoughts or Ideas of my trigger - as my 1st cross bow and 1st trigger (have already Improved since this pic but not much different)
    Thanks Mark

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by c sitas on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:51 am

    good idea there. easy to add a positve safety also

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by globalmark on Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:48 am

    Hi Sitas 

    Positive Safety ?? - Whats that you mean the one i added or something else ??
    Mark

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by c sitas on Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:15 pm

    can't tell from the pic good enough. But when you block the trigger, that helps but, when you block the sear ,that's more positive.

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by globalmark on Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:37 pm

    Ok maybe have a look to see if can change that tomorrow , maybe can do the same have extra piece sticking out with rotating bar or locking lever -
    - using wood first really helps for sure as after design only takes 2mins cut each piece on bandsaw and quick file.
    Any suggestions on different safety ??
    cheers Mark

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by c sitas on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:40 am

    My eyes aren't so hot any more,so I can't really tell what's going on by the trigger. But any lever or such that can be made to block the movement of the sear is best. I don't know what you know so don't get mad at me for saying something. The sear is the first piece you show actually holding the roller.You block the movement of that and you got it.

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by globalmark on Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:31 am

    Hi Sitas 

    Crossbows - I know absolutely Nothing , made a few Bows and am a cabinet maker/mechanic - but crossbows i know NOTHING - and would not get mad - actually had to look up which part a SEAR was anyway - haha Thanksfor clarification ..

    Anyway - had a look and cannot see a easy way to Block the sear due to shape of stock - as was thinking a pin coming out the back - but when i get a few parts made from Metal will have a play - maybe make the frame first then try wooden parts in that and see..

    Maybe you or some one else can also answer this - the stock is currently 36" long (will cut end off as needed) and seems will have approx 23" from claw (sear) to the end - i am yet to cut a hole for the PROD - 
    How far from the PROD to the Claw should it be (i have read few crossbow building articles and most suggest 14") is that from prod centre or from string when strung - is there a formula or should i see after Tiller the prod ?
    Thanks for help 

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by c sitas on Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:20 pm

    That set up is "critical. You don't want to over draw the bow and break it. I would test for the draw length on a  tiller stick.Once you you know your max length ,you can play around with the draw by using different strings. Just be careful when starting out, better tooooo short than a broken bow.Also you could ,set up on the long side, then use a D loop to determine a start point. Just to see how the bow looks while bending."Guess work".
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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by Geezer on Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:48 pm

    Concerning 'critical' distance for draw: Most bow-materials have a fairly linear force curve when drawn... up to a point.  So one of my old aluminum-alloy 75 lb. prods gets about 9 pounds per inch of draw. One-inch is 9 lb, two is 18, three is 27, etc. until the prod tops out around 70 lb.  With most materials you eventually get to the 'stacking' point, at which the draw weight per inch (or centimeter or whatever) starts to go up very quickly.  Bowyers call that the 'stacking' point.  It usually means you're approaching the breaking or bending point.  Careful use of a bow-scale, with your prod bound to a temporary stock should make it possible to determine when you've got to the stacking point.  Back of an inch or so, and you should be at a fairly safe bend for your prod.  Of course using a shorter or longer string does pre-stress the prod a bit, so the Length of draw may vary, but the amount of bend should be pretty constant.  Try it:  might just work.  Geezer. (no, I haven't done this experiment, but I have flat turned down a prod that theoretically should have been safe, when it was obviously stacking.)

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by globalmark on Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:41 pm

    HI Sitas and Geezer 

    Thanks for that Info I will take it slow on tiller tree and see what I can get first then- my digital luggage scales i used for telling bow Draw weight seems to error at 95lbs as just beeped at a recurve bow i made over 100lbs so not sure if will work for the prod .
    I have making a few Bows- recurve, longbows etc so sorta understand - i will get the Prod on the tiller and see how much flex i get - I did put it on Briefly yesterday but seemed very stiff - but will see tomorrow maybe how much movement i can get out of it as have got the final shape in now - 

    Currently the prod- Has Bamboo Back, Oak tapered core - small very thin bamboo power lam , 2nd tapered Bamboo core and finally a Tempered Bamboo Belly - 39mm wide in center maybe 16mm thick and approx 17-17.5mm wide at tips at approx 11-12mm thick - 35.5inch's long - glued up with Smooth-on Epoxy

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by c sitas on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:33 pm

    If your scale isn't able to read high enough,just gear it down  and double what it reads. I only have a standard 100# scale . Normally it will handle any of my archery needs. When I get into crossbows, it's a different story. Crossbow   can easily run double the weight of a regular bow.

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    Re: Do all triggers Have claws - what types and claw or no claw

    Post by globalmark on Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:19 am

    Hey Sitas

    Thats a great idea I already have a tiller with Puller wheels to lighten my pull so just have to to put the scales in a different place - always just looped around the bow string to my hook .  why didnt i think of that then ..thanks for the tip 
    Mark

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