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    Trigger safety designs

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    Trigger safety designs

    Post by Teagus on Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:04 pm

    Hello all,

    I recently became aware of the "quick disconnect pin into the trigger" safety concept for a roller nut cb. Does anyone have any info or pics of other methods? I can't find pics of the New World arb style.

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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Todd the archer on Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:09 pm

    Here is a saftey I came up with. The picture shows the crossbow upside down. It uses a spring loaded hinge to block the tickler. To shoot you hold back the hinge with your index finger while squeezing the tickler with your remaining fingers.







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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Geezer on Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:57 am

    Geezer here with the usual load of opinions: Todd, your 'crutch' safety is actually a medieval design. At least there were safeties (@ 15th century?) that work just that way, a little folding leg engages a detent in the bottom of the tickler.
    My safeties use a rotating bolt that blocks the trigger. I just drill a 5/16 in. hole through the stock, just behind the tickler, so that a bolt fitted into the hole will prevent the tickler from moving AT ALL. I counter-sink a nut into the passage on the 'off' side of the passage (differs for right or left-handed shooters) Put a bolt into the passage, see where it contacts the trigger. Mark that, remove bolt and cut away about 1/2 the bolt on ONE SIDE. Now, if you turn the bolt 90 degrees, the trigger should be free to move. Turn it back the other way and the trigger is locked. Drill a passage through the bolt-head for a little lever to make it easier to turn the bolt. Voila' you have a safety.
    I usually smooth the bolt-head and blue it, so it doesn't look so much like a bolt sticking out. Fit a fancy cover over the inlet nut on the off-side for the same reason. This is not a medieval safety, but it works well and doesn't look entirely out of place. Of course a rotating-bolt isn't self- setting and if you pull the tickler Really-Really Hard, you can bend the bolt, but that's pretty much true of all safeties. Geezer.
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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Teagus on Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:12 am

    I have an available tooling hole in my derin nuts. Thinking about a possible spring pin concept. If the nut can't rotate, you would not have to deal with hand forged trigger issues.





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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Geezer on Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:43 am

    Geezer here: Years ago, I tried a locking pin that inserted into the nut, to act as a safety. It was very simple and locked up the roller very well, but if you actually tested the safety, but pulling the trigger, the nut would shift just the least bit, which tended to jam it. EVen when you reset the trigger, it was very hard to get the safety-pin out of the hole and the lock reset. Perhaps if I tried the same thing today, I would get better results, with better fitting rollers, stronger sears, etc. but that early experience is the reason I use the rotating-bolt for a safety. It never jams, because the trigger never disengages.
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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Teagus on Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:59 am

    Ok, I will give the bolt a try. If my triggers are shaped on a bend fixture when they come out of the gas forge, I should be able to standardize the location. Would it be a problem sharing where along the trigger you locate yours?

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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Teagus on Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:34 am

    I guess I am worried about the bolt interfering with this new sideplate design. I am not sure about hair trigger adjustment causing location variation. I would need to locate it at a finite minimum setting for the hair trigger. Looks like the most stable location is under the trigger and between the trigger axle and the nut. For ease of shooting, behind the trigger on the downward bending section.

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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Ivo on Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:29 pm

    Hey guys! Looking good Teagus. Smile

    I've set a *rule of thumb* for myself when it comes to safeties.


    • Block the sear, Not the trigger or the latch(nut).

    If you think about it, it just makes sense. If you block the nut and leave the sear free to move...there is a chance the trigger will lock up once you press the trigger and make it a real pain to reset...Just as Geezer said.

    The above rule applies to all kinds of triggers and is the first and most reliable safety there is (IMHO).

    In modern crossbows there are sometimes several safeties and I broke them down into three groups:

    Primary Safety
    Blocks the sear from disengaging the latch/nut.
    Secondary Safety
    Blocks the trigger (disengages as you grip the crossbow, meaning crossbow can not be discharged by accidentally by bumping the trigger, you have to grip the crossbow to shoot it).
    Anti-Dryfire
    Blocks the latch/nut. If you attempt to discharge the crossbow without an arrow loaded in it, the latch/nut will lock up (retaining the string) and you will be forced to reset it.
    The above can be mixed and matched to block different components in a variety of trigger compositions.

    I'm at work right now, but I'll be back and will update the table with some examples, so make sure to check in a bit later.

    Later,

    Ivo




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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Teagus on Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:52 pm

    I think I have an idea. I will need to modify the new sideplate designs to hold the safety. BRB in a few with the new design. BTW, my avatar is of the only non-modern roller nut on this year's East Kingdom Champions team. It kicked Mid butt. O ya
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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Teagus on Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:45 pm

    Yo Geezer,

    Is this what you had in mind? Think it will fly?







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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Geezer on Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:13 pm

    Yup, I put mine on the other side of the fulcrum, but that oughta work just fine. Of course, with a long-lever trigger you CAN pull hard enough to bend the safety, but that shouldn't be a problem in the normal course of things. The same could probably be said of your Remington bolt-action. Geezer
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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Ivo on Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:25 pm

    Looks good. Smile

    My right hand is covered in bandages, but since you're getting stuff done, I just can't sit around doing nothing *reversed the mouse buttons in the control panel and got my cad on*. Laughing


    The sheet metal cradle safety.

    I like Geezers safety though, so if you take that design...an excellent choice still. Smile

    Geezer wrote:Of course, with a long-lever trigger you CAN pull hard enough to bend the safety

    ...."bend" your safety and "tare" mine a new one. Laughing

    Think Todd's little flippy hinge might just be the most brute resistant, being so far from the fulcrum..

    Ivo

    PS: Teagus, say Hi to the Pirates for us.




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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Teagus on Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:46 am

    Thanks all for the help with the safety. Yea, that is me over on Pirates. The build-a-long from hell.
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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Ivo on Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:14 pm

    Oi mates!

    Teagus..buildalong from hell? A damn good one too. Smile Stop by more often, you build some really nice stuff and I'm sure the guys here will love to see your mad skills.

    Now to get back to the topic...I got this crazy idea a long time ago for a bullpup crossbow with a built in spanning lever that runs the full length of the crossbow. Yeh...from the end of the track all the way to the corner of the buttstock. As you remember from this thread here...the grip is actually part of the lever so i had to come up with a solution that would make this composition possible.

    Here is the the concept I have in mind. Cool

    It has an automatic safety that disengages as you grip the weapon and re-engages if you decide to let go.



    The
    latch is simply cut from square pipe and is spring loaded by two torsion springs working in opposite directions in such a way
    that it comes back up to be engages by the string while spanning.



    It's
    a modular assembly similar to upper/lower receivers on firearms. The
    two modules are attached to different parts of the crossbow...the latch
    that retains the string is the upper receiver permanently attached to
    the the crossbow body and the release is the lower receiver and a
    permanent part of the spanning lever. These two modules come apart
    during spanning and once the latch engages the string and is in the
    locked position, the sear also becomes locked by a safety mechanism.



    Since
    the mechanism's safety is engaged as soon as the string is latched...it
    prevents accidental releases when you snap the lever back in place to
    bring the two modules back together. Weapon remains in safe mode at all
    times except the moment the string is latched(since the sear needs to be
    unblocked for this) and when you grip the weapon to pull the trigger.



    So
    yes, to shoot this thing you basically grip the pistol grip of the
    weapon - pressing the orange lever which disengages the safety and then
    pull the trigger. Otherwise it's always in safe mode.Smile

    EDIT:
    The parts are located on different planes, so they don't bump into each
    other...just thought I'd mention it. May need to be spread apart a bit
    more though.

    Top View.



    Ivo

    PS: It's still a concept, not a blue print...don't hate...I'm still working on it. Laughing On the good side...you get too see a bit more of the cradle safety that I was talking about earlier. jocolor




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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Todd the archer on Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:16 am

    Looks good Ivo, is this a concept or something your actually going to build?



    I like the idea of a grip saftey but still think another saftey would be a good idea for when holding and carrying the crossbow around.



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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by mac on Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:23 am

    Teagus,

    Here is a sketch of a crossbow safety I built for my first bow.

    Instead of *turning*, the cross bolt *slides*. It has notches cut in it to two different depths. The one is deep enough to let the nose of the trigger descend. The other blocks the trigger, and keeps the safety bolt from rotating. A small leaf spring engages one or the other of a pair of detente notches on the bottom of the bolt. These stop the safety in the two positions. The safety bolt can not slide past either of the two positions because of the presence of the nose of the trigger.

    This is an easy mechanism to build, and works well. I don't think it has any historical precedent, however.
    [img][/img]
    Please also note that in my sketch, I have drawn the area around the pivot of the trigger to include more
    material than you have indicated in your drawing. This is not only good
    engineering, but the historical practice as well.

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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by 8fingers on Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:55 pm

    Try a cabinet makers ' bullet catch' instead of a leaf spring. Just drill a hole, press it into place. It looks like a little brass cylinder with a ball bearing in the tip, coil spring pushes the ball bearing up. About the size of a .22 short, and quite cheap. Lee Valley tools sells them for $.80 ea. Fanciest bullet catches list for $9.40 in the largest size but they would be too strong for a safety.
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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by mac on Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:35 pm

    8,

    I'm sure the bullet catch would work just fine, but I would feel "dirty" using it. I won't even use coil springs.... we all draw our lines in different places.

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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Ivo on Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:41 pm

    Looks good Ivo, is this a concept or something your actually going to build?

    The trigger is built around the trigger that I've been practicing to make in large quantities, so yes It's something that will show up in one of my future builds....but for now, not sharing this concept, would simply be unfair to you guys.

    I
    like the idea of a grip saftey but still think another saftey would be a
    good idea for when holding and carrying the crossbow around.

    The thing with this grip safety is more of a coolness factor just as you said, but the the part that actually blocks the sear contains a very practical feature. I like the crisp *clicking* safeties and my very first trigger had exactly that...



    However, the one with the grip lever is cool in a sense that it should be very quite and I like that very much. I wish I had the time to get out and enjoy the hunting season with you guys, but I've been overloaded with work...still, I think *hands down* a quite safety will be a very good feature in a hunting crossbow. Smile

    Since I'm on topic of silencing the safety...

    A small leaf spring engages one or the other of a pair of detente
    notches on the bottom of the bolt. These stop the safety in the two
    positions.
    ...
    Try a cabinet makers ' bullet catch' instead of a leaf spring.
    ...

    That is a very nice and simple safety...and the bullet catch...man I wish I knew they made those in such small sizes.

    I have a paintball gun (Tippmann 98 Custom) and it uses a version of that safety, only it was done in a slightly different manner.





    It's basically the same safety only instead of milled trigger stops it's a lathed part. While it's may be a slightly weaker design - it's very *quite*. Instead of the little dimples that a spring clicks into, this version uses o-rings for retention and that makes it a very quite safety.

    Also...Notice how the red o-ring show that the safety is on...I thought that was another cool touch. Smile

    Ivo




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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Ivo on Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:55 am

    Ivo wrote:...The thing with this grip safety is more of a coolness factor just as you said, but the the part that actually blocks the sear contains a very practical feature. I like the crisp *clicking* safeties and my very first trigger had exactly that...




    My younger brother was searching Youtube for Crossbow Builds a while back and one day stumbled upon a Gent by the name JasonWemp, who I later wrote a few messages and invited to come check out our forum. The man is starting a new crossbow project that is looking sweet...CrushingNeonBabies is no one special Wink , but I like the safety and it looks right at home in Jason's trigger composition.



    And since I'm here I'll chip in a fun bit of info I learned from a really cool Russian crossbow builder(before Arbalist Guild was even in the picture).

    A very unique dry-fire inhibitor design that combines the anti-dryfire function of the block with the arrow retention clip to create an effect I described in the diagram below. Hope you like. Smile



    The Russian guy that I'm talking about is Sergey Phoenix (if you ask me - the man is a legend cheers )of the Russian Crossbow Forum ...check out his build here >>> Link

    Ivo




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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by cowscankill on Fri May 25, 2012 11:46 pm

    Ivo wrote:



    Ivo

    While bored and trying to look for inspiration on my next design, I drew up a stencil for this mechanism. Not sure if anyone will care or use it, but it's here nonetheless: http://imgur.com/a/bM6Rr

    To download the second image, mouse over the top right corner and click the download icon.

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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by chaz on Sat May 26, 2012 12:40 am

    Never dissapointed when checking out info. on the forum it, helps make the gears turn one more cog.

    Thanks all,

    Chaz
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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by whiteraven on Tue May 29, 2012 7:03 pm

    cowscankill wrote:
    Ivo wrote:
    Ivo
    While bored and trying to look for inspiration on my next design, I drew up a stencil for this mechanism. Not sure if anyone will care or use it, but it's here nonetheless: http://imgur.com/a/bM6Rr

    To download the second image, mouse over the top right corner and click the download icon.

    Love that mechanism! Simple yet effective.Would it work with a tickler style trigger?
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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by septua on Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:33 pm

    This safety is normally on from the tension spring until the
    magnet is manually advanced to contact with release nut.


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    Re: Trigger safety designs

    Post by Hotspur on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:13 pm

    Teagus wrote:Yo Geezer,

    Is this what you had in mind? Think it will fly?









    Resurrecting an old thread for posterity...
    I built this safety (damn, thought it was my idea!) ...hammered it out of some 1/4" bar stock. I liked the idea of just bending an 'L' rather then trying to fasten or thread a cross 'T' knob. It works well with a positive 'stay put' feel, kind of jams in place... (Up off/ forward-fire) combined with butt-simple design. This lock has two layers of smaller inner side plates that act to keep pins in place and as bearing surfaces. The innermost right plate holds the safety lever pin like a retainer ring fastener in that grove. The third set of outer side plates keep the various pins from coming out.








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