The world speed record is broken

Used audacity and the film 
"MANTIS Elite with uprated ENERGYWAVE technology gas spring."
to get 689 fps in Phil Abrahms Talisman Mantis crossbow.
That´s a remarcable word record ladies and gentlemen.


Congratulations Phil!

Been following Phil's work with interest, and his creations certainly look impressive.

However, I hope he can back up the 689fps claim with some chrony shooting video

Hey now ; what are a couple of feet per second     amoungst friends. I know what the meant.  Whew.That's whistleing.

Andy. wrote:Been following Phil's work with interest, and his creations certainly look impressive.

However, I hope he can back up the 689fps claim with some chrony shooting video

Well it´s not Phil claiming that speed (at least not this time...) -It´s me.

I downloaded the free software Audacity to record the sound and divided time by distance to get 689 fps. Afterwards today I realise that there is a posibility of that the youtube video doesnt have the exaxt realistic framrate/speed as the real situation so there is still a chansch of misscalculation of me? The microfon recording was also not in the middle distance between the crossbow and the target but still very close to both of them. 

At first I tried to record the 55 yards shooting but realised the target sound was to far away to be recorded clearly and also it took some time for that sound to reach the microfone (compared to the sound of the crossbow shot). He also set the power to the weakest level in the 55 yard video but the highest power in the short 20 yard video. Thats why I used the short-distance movie. (of course I converted 20 yards to 18 meters and also converted from m/s to fps in the end).

I think the 689 fps is the truth but also wait for Phils own chrony shootings as you say.

Hey guys, I'm an archer also besides crossbow. With a compound bow ,around 100 pds draw weight , twice the draw length, half the arrow weight.Can not consistently break 400 fps. So it would be fairly safe to call foul ball here. There are guys cheating with the arrow and can't do it every shot.By cheating, in archery your supposed to shoot an arrow of about 5 grains per inch so you don't break your bow.

Whether the numbers are accurate or not, from an examination of the pictures, I don't think the prod (lath or bowstave) is doing the work on this machine.  They're calling it a 'gas-spring' Is it actually a pneumatically operated ballista?  If so, the idea goes back to Heron of Alexandria, but it's not really a bow at all.  Geezer.

Geezer; bow or not. For a string to launch an arrow that fast , I really don't buy it. Takes a hell of a commercial made bow to even approach 400. Then they fly apart.Had just a 100 pd. bow explode in my hands . Won't reccomend this . It hurt . This is common place when you start to push the limits.

Well, the german engineer Ruediger Koltze developed a multi-bow crossbow in the nineties that shot arrows with 659fps

It was featured in the german gun magazine "VISIER"  1995 Issue 10 page 138ff.
He used four barnet prods of 250lbs connected in a different way. So thats 1000#of Drawweight to shoot a comparative light arrow.... Not very efficient, cumbersome design - but doable - yes ,if you believe the claims the VISIER observators recorded. 


A patent can be found here: http://www.google.com/patents/US5720268

in the bowyers bible vol4 page 154 you can see a pic of Alan Case`s flight bow made by the same principle. According to the description due to the design the return speed of the center string is multiplied several times but it stacks badly and stores less energy per draw-weight-pound than regular designs.
Used for  flight shooting Because in flight shooting dry fire speed is king.



The mantis works like the design of Mr Robert van house, unflexible arms are connected to a central spring and work on a pulley system. PatentUS 4169456A "Short limb achery bow" https://www.google.com/patents/US4169456?dq=US+4169456+A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fj9LVeA2yaOyAbzVgOAG&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA

According to Middletons "man powered bullets" this crossbow design shot arrows at over 400fps

Hi everyone,Phil here,well i just do not know what to say except that i am ecstatic,lost for word's,you name it,when Oppenheimer came to my Facebook page and told me this i thought OMGG this is truly STAGGERING and thought to myself well what about that crossbow with four prod's that was the most powerful crossbow ever and thought there's absolutely no way on this earth that i could have made a crossbow this fast and powerful.I then replied to the new's by saying now are you absolutely dead certain about this kind of speed & power and then left it for a good few day's just to see if he had made a mistake at all and we then got in contact and talked about this.Now what do you think the word BOW refer's to i.e is it the function or is it the shape that define's what a BOW really is.For example a straight stick is refer'ed to as being BOW'ED when it is bent.So if you think about it a crossbow or any bow is called a bow because the prod or limb's are BOWE'D especially when drawn regardless whether or not they store all the ENERGY.The mechanical bow of the Mantis doe's transfer all the store'd energy that is stored in the spring and then to the bowstring as the store'd energy is transfered to the pivoting limb's as soon as that trigger is squeezed and work's EXACTLY the same as any conventional flexing limb bow for without these specially design'ed and shape'd bow limb's it quite simply would not work so when some say thing's like FAKE limb's that do NOTHING is not true at all A prime example of fake limb's is seen in the VACUM powered CROSSBOW by a Russian Gentleman and that is a very powerful weapon too as just look at his video's to see how easily he cock's it with his hand's and it is only the bowstring that travel's so no mass there at all and it penetrated a piece of 2mm thick steel so it is very efficient indeed and i congratulate him as to me that is brilliant and so simple but it work's.FLEXING LIMB'S do an excellent job if made as perfect as is possible and all crossbow's out there are perfect with ample speed & power to get any job done i.e HUNTING or TARGET shooting and 300 fp's with  say a 400 grn arrow/bolt is very powerful indeed.Anyway just though that i would come on here and say hello as it's been a while since i posted here last and keep up all the great work with all the very fascinating and very interesting crossbow project's as there's nothing quite like a beautiful crossbow that you made all by yourself and remember that Phil did it all with just a bench PILLAR DRILL and two modified fretsaw's one for cutting and one for filing very awkward shape's and also a bench grinder and a hand grinder and linisher (bench belt sander) a DREMMEL hand held drilling/grinding/cutting tool and a bandsaw for wood and a small model maker's lathe & miller and good file's of all shape's and size's so nothing very special or indeed very expensive at all and a nice workshop to get well away from her indoor's,lol.My workshop has it all it's a NIGHTCLUB with all the best speaker's that i designed & built myself and turntable's/cd player's a mixer and powerful amp and there's also an indoor shooting range for airgun's/crossbow's and a STONE wood burner i also made too and on many a very cold winter's evening i am up there either working on crossbow's or shooting them or listening to quality soul/dance music with a nice bottle of red wine chilling,all the best,Phil.

You know Phil.I don't want to upset you but, there are those on this forum, and all around the archery world that can't, and will not go the way you say. You have a great machine, I myself, love it . The mechcanical part of this hobby is what I love. Just by reading on here one can see there is a real interest in this path. I know you'll be upset but, I don't think the market will take this on either. They are propelled by the hunters. To get the states of the United States to accept this for hunting will never happen.That is where the MONEY is, and that is what controls what all of use do and buy.

Well what i do not fully understand why that is as the Mantis itself is not as fast as the Elite version on here and  shoot's from 350 to 500 fps.So dead inline with what's all ready out there and there are State's that should allow such a weapon as look at the Oneida bow where the bow limb's do not flex at all and also another spring powered vert bow and that's a prime example so just because it has not got flexing limb's then this should really be no problem at all as it is wrong to define a bow by flexing limb's as it is the shape that define's a bow as in bow legged people etc which all walk exactly the same.This totally unique crossbow has so many advantage's over conventional crossbow's such as a very narrow bowspan for a long powerstroke and the power is fully adjustable so you can shoot at the speed and power you like and the string is a very simple one piece string that is easily changed in minute's and it's also a Bespoke highly exclusive highest end crossbow that is for a very niche market.The Elite is for the pure adrenalin rush of shooting an arrow from 450- over 600 fps as there is absolutely nothing quite like it and only for those that want all this speed & power and for the biggest dangerous game on this planet.This crossbow is a very expensive one as it's a bespoke full custom whatever you want crossbow a SUPERCROSSBOW is what the Elite is just like SUPERCAR'S except this one is the Bugatti Veyhron of them all.

As a point of discussion here ,you see where the Oneida bow is today. Never really caught on.Was not that much better than what was around at the time. Although it does flex it's limbs, I have one for fishing.If you look at the the compound racket. you see all the pulleys and cables and what ever's but, they all flex the limbs to get the power to the arrow.All shapes and many sizes but, All flex their limbs. I might add also  as to speed, they approach 400 but ,can't hold it. When they do get there they use super light arrows and that doesn't unload the bow. You know what happens when things are dry fired. Price wise ,you can buy the highest priced ones for less than 2000 dollars.

Yes i seen an Oneida bow at an archery field target shoot several year's ago and i loved it,the design and how it worked.Now the crossbow has allway's been referred to as a sporting engine as it is a complex piece of archery equipment with a stock or tiller and a trigger mechanism and cocking mechanism on not all but the very powerful crossbow's so it is therefore a machine as such as any engine is also a machine.The only bow that is not really a machine is the longbow or indeed any other bow with just a simple bowstring.I also see a compound vertical bow as a machine except the one's without cam's but just simple pulley's unless you have a double up pulley system as then it is much more complex.A normal compound bow has usually a three piece string with the main string that shoot's the arrow being attatch'd to each cam and the two other cable's or string's going from each limb tip to the smaller inner cam.I have never said that my way is the way never and i never will as everyone has to decide for themselve's exactly what they like and want to shoot and all i have done is to be able to offer to those and only those that would like or want such a piece of fine archery equipment that will never be mass produced as true Bespoke lovingly designed,crafted and built can never be such an item.This is for the very niche archery market only.So the Scorpyd is still the world's most powerful production crossbow.

Ya , Phil, I tell you, I love the mantis design. Even the one with the vacuum cyl. I was thinking of maybe trying that.  Making the cyl. would be the easy part for me.I have been working with the forward facing limbs and the reverse draw. No cams , just wheels. Shoots nice. What I like is the long draw.I also shoot what I would call a duplex bolt or arrow. These can approach close to a thousand grains with the broad head.You have a cool outfit.Stay with it.  Say, what ever happened to War Hammer?  He had some real goings on for a while  when I first come here.

rolynd wrote:

A patent can be found here: http://www.google.com/patents/US5720268

in the bowyers bible vol4 page 154 you can see a pic of Alan Case`s flight bow made by the same principle. According to the description due to the design the return speed of the center string is multiplied several times but it stacks badly and stores less energy per draw-weight-pound than regular designs.

If anybody is interested trying those,
here is a more practical set-up for a crossbow

These throw kebab-sticks with impressive speeds, but "stacks badly and stores less energy per draw-weight-pound than regular designs".



Anyway. Isn't the World speed record more than that?
I remember some people (IIRC at thehurl.org) claiming 271 m/s (900fps) with a golf ball launched from a single armed catapult.

Well Tinkerer many thank's,all i ever wanted to do was to follow my dream as i do love high power and came up with this idea after finding that bow prod's made of glass fiber did splinter and thought of an idea with a spring.This was in 1986 then left it at that and several year's past and i made other flexing limb crossbow's here and there for people and myself.Then got into air rifle's and worked on them for several year's then i went to college and studied product design & manufacture and got a Degree then found that every job i applied for was CAD so i tried to learn this on several course's then decided to not bother as this was not for me and then a while later got back into crossbow's and remembered the idea i had for a pivoted limb bow with a spring and started sketching out idea's and eventually after several week's i had a plan.I thought i need to make one and started making it and it was not right at all so decided to make not just a crossbow but a crossbow that would be as artistic and as beautiful as i could.To cut a very long story short it was the Beast crossbow,now at the time i was doing painting and decorating that i truly despised and in between i worked on the sketche's as i took them on every job i did and this helped me to stay positive.After having designed every part and how it all would work i then got an old Aluminium sign from a friend's yard and cut out the side's for this crossbow and eventually the Beast was built and then modifie'd more and more with better limb's and trigger part's until it worked as perfect as i could get it to and when set on full draw at 225 lb's with a 15" powerstroke it shot a music wire bolt clean through 2x1" board's and also a 3mm Aluminium plate and i was very impressed.The powerstroke originally was around 18" and i had to reduce this via a special linkage to get the power i wanted.Will do a video of The BEAST in action when i can.Anyway Warhammer i miss him too a great enthusiastic man that had some very interesting idea's.He became involved with Derrick Middleton a few year's back on one of his in swinger design's and since that he's been rather quiet i hope he is well i expect he's got an awesome in swinger or something else that he's been developing and will be back any day soon to show us what he's done with it,god bless him.Hey good luck making that Vacum bow i like it as it has got awesome potential.Imagine what that bow would really do if it had a strong enough cylinder made of say 3mm thick aluminium and the inside being honed/finely polished to reduce any friction and also to reduce seal wear.A very powerful vacum pump could be the answer i would love to see what  this crossbow is capable of if you could get say a 400 lb's draw weight it would be very fast & powerful,could even be the fastest and most powerful,all the very best,Phil.

Hey all on here.I got one for you,now when they say that a compound crossbow or a vertical bow with CAM'S is at the draw weight they say it is like for example a 175 lb's draw weight like on most sporting crossbow's,what do you think that the ACTUAL draw weight really is.Now a compound with CAM'S work's in reverse to a typical recurve bow exept that is if it has pulley's as then this also work's exactly like a recurve too with the draw weight increasing as the string is drawn back.When you go to cock that 175 lb's crossbow the initial draw weight (at rest) is a lot more and i reckon at around 250 lb's - 300 + lb's and on some even more,and then as it is drawn at around a foot or so the CAM BREAK'S so making it a lot easier and this allow's a much more simpler trigger mechanism to be employed as it is only holding back around half the Draw weight depending on the Cam's involve'd so the actual limb's are a whole lot stronger than what some people realize.There is no way on this earth that the speed's like 400 + fp's or even 350 + fps could be reached with a powerstroke of say 15" - 19" and with a top draw weight of 175 lb's.Also with composite or metal limb's the thicker you make them then the more stress involve'd so the best way to avoid stress in limb's is to make them wider in band to increase the poundage and cam's also play a very important role as they greatly reduce the limb flexing through high ratio gearing.Love flexing limb's myself too as i have developed a technique to make very heavy draw weight composite prod's without the weight that will never break or de laminate and they will be pretty fast if you want high speed and a little later on i'll also be bringing out some very nicely design'd and crafted wooden flexing limb crossbow's with the draw weight's you want.Will also be doing a nice range of very powerful pistol sized crossbow's too based on the DEVIL'S CLAW crossbow.

Phil, where do I see this stuff?I'm interested. On the compound bow, the limbs are quite heavy, a 70 pd pull bow would be using limbs draw weight wise maybe 125 or 150 actual draw weight. Thats what I used for one of my projects. I used reverse draw and just small pullies. I cock with a winch. Has about 19" draw, shoots a duplex aluminum bolt. Can't say about speed ,don't have the chrony for that.It's very accucrate. Just like a 22 rifle. I only shoot out to thirty or yds.

Hi there my good friend sound's great what you are doing i think i seen your bow in action on a video as this was a very nicely made reverse limb with pulley's and i was very impressed,very powerful and plenty fast enough too,Chrono's are a real pain i know this,lol.These new flexing limb crossbow's i will do a little later on as soon as i get to it which i am hoping to be around 6 month's from now i also will be doing a bespoke range of very high powered crossbow pistol's or micro crossbow's that will be something very special as no one is making very high powered pistol bow's will upload some design's onto here that i done several year's ago and thought that these could well be what some would really appreciate.I will upload them within the next couple of day's,anyway you take good care and stay in contact,Phil.

Really looking forward to see your stuff Phil .

https://www.facebook.com/TalismanCrossbows Here you are my good friend these are going to be very beautiful i will really push the boat out as i alway's do,lol.Please just scroll on down on my page and you can view them.

Ya Phil , you have a collection of some great looking stuff. All deadly for sure.I'm a tinkerer at heart, second would be a hunter.I'd have a place for all of them.

Hey a TINKERER is what i am too as that is exactly what it is all about making thing's look and work as best as you can and that's what all inventor's/innovator's are as all the very best thing's out there come from the real enthusiast's as it is the right people with the right vision and idea's and passion that do the very greatest thing's and have the necessary ambition and drive to enable this and most of the very best idea's and innovation's are never done just for the love of money as if they were then they would never have been taken to the very highest level.Money make's some people do absolutely anything just to get it,not me not ever i got moral's.Yes money is good but only if good is done with it.When i get these Pocket Beast's made i will do very special offer's for those that are very passionate about crossbow's.

Phil, You can bet I'll stay tuned. Whether I can dance or not will remain to be seen. Being retired the coin isn't quite as loose as it once was. I want a good killing machine, don't like what they charge and what you get so, I'm making my own stuff.Some thing that strikes me funny, in this day and age  of HI Tech, there is still so much room for guys like you and I. I'm no rocket scientist , but I manage.

I hear you,money is a very tough one for most today and most so called high tech stuff is really very low tech in reality as most are made in other countrie's from poor grade material's and very poor workmanship.High tech is a very big selling point and they use this to sell low tech and most people believe what they tell them.I have found that in most case's you must go backward in order to go foreward and i love real design done by hand as it's the best way,just look around at the old car's and everything that was not computer aid'ed as it really is so much better.The computer has allowed the guy without real talent to design stuff that really he is not capable of at all as even a computer need's the right stuff put into it to get the very best out of it.All the computer has done is to speed up the process but like with everything in life there are trade off's and also vital artistic skill's are eroded so the guy with the real creative,artistic talent that can't work a computer wont get the job where'as the computer loving egghead with no artistic flare or design sense will get the job as everything today is all about the QUANTITY and not like it use'd to be about the QUALITY.Now that is exactly where i come in to bring this back as best as i possibly can as i am all about the Quality,man i hate them Susan Boil head car's so much it hurt's along with most other hyped up throw away junk from hell,lol.