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    Bolt or bind prod?

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    coiner10
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    Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by coiner10 on Thu May 31, 2012 3:04 pm

    Which is better for a beginner with a limited access to tools? And how would one go about bolting the prod to the stock?
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by Gnome on Thu May 31, 2012 4:23 pm

    Hi Coiner, welcome to the forum. What type of bow are you thinking of building? I've mounted prods with bow irons, and also mounted them in a socket with wooden wedges driven in to hold them in place. Neither method is complicated and can be done with hand tools, just requires precision to get the prod set straight, firm and true. I'm trying to get myself psyched up to do my first pure medieval build with a bound prod. I have a feeling that "tying one on" might be a bit like playing the harmonica- easy to do, but hard to do well!

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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by Todd the archer on Thu May 31, 2012 6:31 pm

    I am with Gnome tying in looksgood and is authentic but is time consuming, which would not be bad in itself except they tend to loosen over time. I have come to prefer the wedge method which seems to hold tight.



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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by stoneagebowyer on Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:30 am

    I just did another binding job. It is not hard, but very time consuming. I found that thicker cordage is easier to manage (less tangling), and hemp really is my favorite mateiral after trying linen. I use a thicker cord for the bridle binding, and a smaller diameter cord for the wrapping. Each time you do it, you get better, just like anything else.
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by mac on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:17 am

    coiner10 wrote: Which is better for a beginner with a limited access to tools? And how would one go about bolting the prod to the stock?

    Coiner,

    It depends on where you are trying to go. If you are making a medieval or renaissance crossbow, then you should do what our ancestors would have done.

    If you are making a modern bow, you can do whatever is convenient for you.

    If you have, as you say, a limited shop, binding might well be easier.

    Mac

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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by coiner10 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:24 am

    I want to have a medieval style stock with a steel prod at 150#. I also want the roller nut and lever to be steel. Other than that, I don't really want era the other stuff is from. A stirrup would be nice too.

    About how long does the lashing take? I'm really good at lashing stocks and stuff together at Boy scouts.
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by Basilisk120 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:46 am

    It doesn't take too long to do a tie on Prod, if you have everything ready to go. Its hard to say exactly how long but once you get it down then the next one will go faster.

    The nice part about it is, you can do this while watching a movie or something so that will make it seem likes going a bit quicker.


    As for the steel roller nut. I would recommend looking at using Delrin -something like: http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-acetal-homopolymer-rods/=hsf0h7
    It will be lighter and easier to work with than steel and will be more than strong enough. There are a couple of different ways to install a steel sear plate into the Roller. One is to cut a groove and install a flat plate and the other is using a threaded rod with a sear nock cut into it. There should be examples of both floating around the site.



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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by coiner10 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:40 am

    I'm planning on buying the nut roller and lever since I'm moving, but for for my next bow I' going to try to make everything.

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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by coiner10 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:05 pm

    Is it better to hollow out a space for the nut in the stock from the top or drill a hole for it from the side?
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by stoneagebowyer on Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:27 pm

    The answer your first question, it takes me about 1.5 hours give or take to do the binding. Just take your time and have fun with it. Cord management will make yoru life easier, as the cords love to get all tangled up like a mutant octopus.

    Regarding the rolling nut socket, if you make the tiller (stock) from two pieces and laminate them, after locating where your socket, drill each half half the depth of the nut. Nothing hard about hit. Be sure and clamp your workpiece to the drill press, and measure more than once to be certain you are accurate. Remember that wood expands and contracts with humidity, time of the year, etc. so too tight a socket will lead to problems.

    Dane

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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by coiner10 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:11 pm

    1.5 hours isn't too bad, and just to be clear on the nut socket you lay the stock down on its side and half way through it on each side?
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by Todd the archer on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:55 pm

    I think what Dane means is to use 2 boards and before glueing together bore the holes from the inside out to speak. If you do this you might as well inlet the tickler passage at the same time.

    If using a single piece of wood and boreing from the side it should look something like this:





    The mortised rectangle is for a wood filler plate which can be glue or screwed on.



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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by coiner10 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:12 pm

    I see it now thanks for the picture Todd. I'm probably going to do that but maybe replace the wooden side panels with metal.
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by jds6 on Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:23 pm

    I just finished my second build and used the binding method. I was not all that hard to do. It took about two hours for me ( tangled a lot ) but again it was my first.
    If you use this method of binding the prod, be sure to pull it TIGHT!!!!
    After shooting my bow a couple of dozen times it seemed to loosen a bit.
    Had to redo the binding. Good luck in which ever method you choose.

    jds6

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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by coiner10 on Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:07 am

    Thank you everyone. It looks like I'm going to bind it.
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by ferdinand on Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:28 am

    About that loosening, maybe if u use leather bindings wich u soak in water it will solfe that problem. The leather will tighten when it goes dry.
    But this is just a theory, maybe someone has done this before?
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by Lightly on Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:43 am

    Coiner;
    Here are some photos of how I tie in bows... Lately, I have been soaking the hemp cord in water, and tying it on wet, and it appears to dry tighter... messy, tho! I wrap a towel around the stick just under the binding hole.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/swifthoundbows/sets/72157622267795263/
    It takes me about an hour or two to tie on a prod.

    I have yet to have any loosen on me, and I am up to nearly 80+ bows made now.

    The dowel really helps, and I figure if I don't break the cord at least once every few bows that I tie in, then I Am Doing It Wrong.
    We use the thicker hemp, looks much better, and tangles much less.

    Remember that this is only ONE way! And, there may be better ways out there...

    Good luck!

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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by stoneagebowyer on Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:49 am

    Nice photo essay, Lightly. And now I know what you look like. Very cool tattooes.

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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by chaz on Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:10 am

    Lightly,

    Looked at the prod binding link. Dang girl! That ain't your first rodeo! Very educational !

    Thank You!

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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by Lightly on Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:52 am

    Thanks, folks, just hope it all helps..

    I originally took those photos just for ME, to help me remember how to do things, and Geezer thought it was a good thing to do as well...
    And, as I said, this is how we do it in THIS shop. We have to walk a fine line between being as accurate as possible, and trying to make a living selling affordable bows.
    I am hoping to do some 'fancier' bows soon, more reproduction of specific bows, to challenge my skills.
    Mac and some others have dropped some great info on things I needed to know, and that has been immensely helpful.
    Unlike many other forums I have belonged to, this one is remarkably supportive and helpful, and, I really appreciate that.

    Best!

    Lightly
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by stoneagebowyer on Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:17 pm

    Lightly, I am curious about how tight or loose your stirrups are, once you finish binding them on with hemp? Is there little or a lot of up and down play, or are they rock steady, or something in between?

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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by Lightly on Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:28 pm

    There is sometimes a tiny bit of play, sometimes it is rock hard... It can loosen up, and often we just put a thin wedge under the stirrup to tighten it up, or, if it is really bad, simply re-bind it all.

    As I said, as far as I know, none of my bows have had the binding loosen up, such that the prod becomes loose, but it does happen that the stirrup can get loose...

    I am interested in becoming better at weaving that leather "cap" on, and wondering, if when it dries after the weaving, that can help hold the stirrup more stable...

    Lightly
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by mac on Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:40 pm

    Lightly,

    As far as I can tell, the woven leather is not just a cap, but the thing that holds the stirrup on.

    It's like they separated the binding functionaly into two distinct components. The first is the hemp cord that holds the prod to the tiller, and second is the leather braiding that holds the stirrup to the prod.

    ....and yes, if you use damp raw hide for the braid, it will get tighter as it dries.

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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by Lightly on Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:59 pm

    Ah! Yes, of course! We use a second length of hemp to hold the stirrup on, but, on thinking on it, and seeing the diagram you made of the probable "original" way of binding the prod on, yes, they must have used the hemp for the prod, and the rawhide "cap" to hold on the stirrup.
    And I have GOT to practice your diagram...

    Thank you, Mac, again! I really appreciate your knowledge.
    All of our skills can only improve thru learning from each other.

    Best!

    Lightly
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    Re: Bolt or bind prod?

    Post by stoneagebowyer on Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:43 pm

    Lightly, I have done three bows with the woven cap using rawhide. Each time it gets easier and more professional looking, but I still refer to Mac's illustration so I dont get lost. You of course soak it and then do the weaving while the material is wet and mallible. The nice thing is you can adjust the stirrup a bit as it dries, so if it is crooked, you have time to correct it. The stuff dries very hard, and there is very little play once it is done. Now, our Italian friend just showed off his German bow, and as far as I can tell, he used fine quality leather, not rawhide, and I wonder how much play he has in his stirrup, if any.

    Dane

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