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starting a 1400's replica

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°1

starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Wed Mar 17, 2021 6:02 am

after lots of evenings of reading have decide that the "crossbow of Matthias Corvinus 1489" will be the design that I will be using as a model. 30" tiller, 24-26" bow, 2 axis lock,, well documented and even an X-ray of the lock.. drawing up plans and gather materials.. calculated the nut size and enlarged the x-ray photo to match, gives me a good pattern of the lock.. wanting to test my new tools with antler, made an arbor and turned a nut blank on the lathe,, set up the boring head in the bench mill and milled a section for the forward nut bearing.. new tools are great!! my holly logs that have been dry for 5 years are spalted and worthless for crossbow needs (they were cut at the worst time) looking at locating a hornbeam billet.. starting a 1400's replica 8iuEgG

starting a 1400's replica 8iuEgG

starting a 1400's replica IhngKr

Fangbows likes this post

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°2

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:17 pm

Awesome, keep us posted. If you struggle with hornbeam, I found hawthorn is a very handsome alternative

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°3

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:27 am

have a good chance that a hornbeam billet may be had, found some readily available beech, birch, ash and maple 3"x3" x36" billets (baseball bat turning blanks) trying to stay with the period correct wood, if going just on looks quilted maple would be my choice.. while the boring head was still set-up a second bearing block section was made.. using some other photos, the listed measurements and the distance between the two axis pins as a reference found that the x-ray photo enlargement was spot on.. working off this enough info was calculated to start on a set of plans..
29-30" overall length
24" nock to nock prod width
4-5" brace
9.25" total draw
nut width 1.2"
nut dia. 1.45"
prod height center 2.25..
not seeing tip rise in the period composite prods the angle of prod mounting at the tiller 8-9 degrees
one thing I find interesting of the prototype is that raised antler sections/wedges are use in place of cross pin/rod as the anchor point for a spanning device..

Last edited by tghsmith on Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:31 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°4

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:42 am

Maple would be my choice from thst list, fruit woods would be authentic as well.

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°5

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:54 am

For the period, your brace height is too high, it should be about 3 inches, the prod way too short. Prod string length should be the same length as the tiller, so unstrung a prod should be about 1.5 inches longer than the tiller. A draw length of about 8.5 to 9 inches is pretty usual for a small European crossbow. There are cases of tip rise but a straight top edge to the prod is the norm.

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°6

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:01 am

Have you read Stuart Gorman's thesis on crossbow technological development. Bit of a must if you haven't. If you can't google a copy message me and I'll send you one

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°7

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:49 am

looks like a very good read.. at a glance might effect my lath length a bit, tiller should not change, except for the nut work from what I had on hand it's all still on paper,, does look like a very good reference.. might have to grab a ream of paper and print out a copy..

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°8

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:01 am

https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/v2/640x480q90/924/7DtYWq.jpg
spent the evening reading the Gorman paper,(thanks) some very good info and documentation. will be adjusting my measurements a bit,, while tiller length could be more of an aesthetic as there are some outliers in the lathe vs tiller sizing.. did find that the lathe length vs the lathe to lock distance (draw) was a constant factor of three for the average composite crossbows (30" lathe=10" draw) this leads me to that the measurements given for the item I'm looking are off or the lathe is not original.. hopefully will get a set of plans draw up now that I'm a little better info armed.. thinking on the fitting method of the antler panels on this tiller(panels for lack of a better word) wondering if plaster molds were taken from the basic shaped tiller body,the antler sections could be matched, filed and carved to match the interior "mold" surface, by use of a caliper the required thickness could be reached , at that point the tiller could be relieved to match..

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°9

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:35 am

Laths would wear out and/or be replaced as fashions changed, very few known crossbows have their original lath

Last edited by stuckinthemud1 on Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°10

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:08 pm

The panels can be heated and moulded to shape. At the risk of sounding immodest, you might find some useful stuff on making the bone, antler and horn inlays on my blog (avenue.woodcarving). You need everything from May 2018 to Nov 2019. Disclaimer, any adverts are because I'm too tight to pay a monthly fee to go add free

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°11

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:00 am

starting a 1400's replica Cb110

starting a 1400's replica Bow_110

starting a 1400's replica Dul110

Stuck, some nice work on your bolg there,,with all the "new" info in hand, drew up a set basic plans, it's kind of one thing to look at numbers but another to get a feel for the true size,, drawings always seem to have a blocky look but it's a step in the process.. the bow pictured is my work using Alchem plans and prod.. the dulcimer was embelished from a set of plans

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°12

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:51 am

Not sure if the nut is recessed too deep on your plan, there's a few posts on here about nut design and nut position, can't remember the rule, hopefully Geezer or ken might chip in

Like the dulcimer, very nice

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°13

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:08 pm

Sent you a pm

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°14

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:58 pm

I made correctly sized copies of the x-ray photo of this tillers lock(pg. 24 A Deadly Art) and worked from there, some adjustments were needed as the X-ray was not perfectly aligned. also incorperating other info from other sources.. nut dia. 37mm.. axle hole 10mm below tiller top surface.. 10mm of nut protrudes above tiller surface.. the plans stage is the best time to make changes..

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°15

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:59 pm

Ok, look, I think you're nussfaden is about 2mm too low, the hole you drop the nut through needs to be big enough for the nut to physically fit through it, if the axle is too low the neck of the roller is too small for the nut to drop through
I'll take some photos and measures off mine and post them tomorrow

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°16

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:50 pm

did a quick test with a cardstock profile of the nut,, it will fit no problems,, but will keep looking at things,, have already planned to do a mock-up of the entire lock mechanism before any axle holes will be drilled in the tiller billet.

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°17

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:59 am

starting a 1400's replica 7vuOaO

starting a 1400's replica 7DtYWq

the final bit of drawing for the weekend.. the trigger.. good photos exist plus the x-ray.. it's actually a fairly complex piece of metal.. will have to decide weather this job will farmed out.. using the great high-res photos from the Met. museum the lines deviding the carved antler and bone sections could be defined.. plans are to keep the original shapes and borders but fill with designs of my own work, will lay-out the basic shapes on paper and make copies to use a "doodle" pages for the design work..

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°18

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:57 pm

Love the drawings for the mechanism. If you can do the metalwork then I suggest you do so, I went through 2 blacksmiths and 3 years delays to get a much simpler tickler made

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°19

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:27 am

Many apologies, I measured the nut and axle on my project, the hole centre for the axle string is 5mm down from the top surface but I used a 32mm nut . Having said that, all the mechanism positions came from the nut, not the other way around and I really really recommend you properly work up the drawing of the nut, including the string fingers . It came as a huge shock to me when I cut them out just how little room I had to play with for the axle and reinforcing wedge. It is the nut fingers that decide the placement of everything else.

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°20

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:10 am

most likely will adjust to about 7mm below the top surface, sent off the tickler drawing to several local artisane blacksmiths, herd back from one and sent him a more detailed drawning. I also suggested that a wood model could be provided so most likely will make that up this week (I think this will aid greatly in the final product, its has some complications that makes 3 view drawing tough), still waiting on a hornbeam billet.. the supplier from a northern state (better slower growth) is busy at this time with beehives and maple sap so it will be when he has time.. my 2 beehives take up time in the spring so I can understand. putting together a horn and bone list..two more books are on the way..

stuckinthemud1: Crossbow Junkie
I live here!; Posts : 530
Join date : 2014-02-05
Age : 56
Location : south wales valleys

Post n°21

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by stuckinthemud1 Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:00 pm

A wood model is pretty much essential. The second blacksmith sat on my drawings for 2 years, as soon as he had a wooden model he got the job done.

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°22

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:51 am

starting a 1400's replica DBtrf3

my 2 possibles of an American hornbeam billet fell through, both turned out to be hophornbeam and not sized for the needs.. but a wood supplier had some nice European hornbeam boards, they will involve my planer and jointer, a centerline glue-up to get the correct width, the line will be hidden by inlay and hornbeam glues well.. on a good note, if I'm carefull should be able to get a second billet out of the operation.. I may predrill the nut cavity in the blanks before glue-up.. redrew the tickler a little more precise.. today is garage cleaning day so access to my tools can be had
https://2img.net/r/ihimizer/v2/640x480q90/924/DBtrf3.jpg

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°23

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:00 pm

starting a 1400's replica RBEqdV

it
knocked together the base form for the wooden tickler model.. it will get cleaned up monday on the belt and spindle sander..

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°24

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:02 am

a few minutes with rasp and sanders and it's looking better.. the shapes form fairly naturally.. starting a 1400's replica 2qFjku

starting a 1400's replica 2qFjku

starting a 1400's replica MCFNNf

tghsmith: Tinkerer
If there is a will, there is a way.; Posts : 85
Join date : 2010-12-14
Location : raleigh nc

Post n°25

Re: starting a 1400's replica

by tghsmith Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:04 pm

a good afternoon, took it off!!!.. the wooden tickler was refined a bit more and now along with the plans and printer photos is in the hands of a local blacksmith, should be a less then 2 week turnaround time.. along with that my European Hornbeam arrived.. the grain is straight and true on both boards,, nice looking stuff.. starting a 1400's replica 8QJERu

starting a 1400's replica 8QJERu

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Re: starting a 1400's replica

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