sights on medieval crossbows

Seeing the thread on set triggers got me thinking; what sighting systems were used in medieval times. I know that sighting over the bolt was probally the most common method used, but think I remember seeing sights of some sort on Italian crossbows. I hope some more knowledgeable people could explain the different types used back then, maybe with pictures.

thanks, Todd

I am interested in this question as well. The only pictures I have seen have a rear folding peep sight with multiple holes (I believe)

Just noticed that the crossbow shown in the header of the forum has a folding rear sight. That is one useful pic.

I wonder what was used as the front sight? maybe the tip of the bolt.

Todd

Sights of any kind on a weapon are naturally vulnerable to damage and to be of any real value they must be at least somewhat precise in the way they're made etc. Although there are many examples of crossbows with rear sights I firmly believe that the majority were shot instinctively, in the same manner as a traditional longbow archer will shoot. Some bare-bow archers will sight by using a technique known as "gun-barreling" whereby they use the three fingers below the arrow nock and then sight by looking along the shaft that is then presented closer to the eye. Undoubtedly the crossbow shooters of old did lots of shooting and some roving practice in the fields and were not distracted by a thousand other activities like we "enjoy" today. Thus I suggest they were good at it and could hit what they aimed at; crudely sighted or otherwise. Using the arrowhead as a foresight is entirely plausible, and as my old friend Robin Allen always says, "Try it and see if it works!"

Pavise

Here's a link showing some sort of sighting system. Go about half way down.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9714&highlight=crossbow

Not the typical peep sight set-up.

That is a sight? Sure defiantly interesting

Hey Todd the archer,

I haven't been on for a few days and didn't notice that we had new people join...Welcome!

It doesn't look like they had any actual front sights on crossbows like the one at the top, just the back.....there is one thing I do remember being mentioned in PAYNE-GALLWEY's - "The Crossbow" where it talks about aiming by using a dot on one of the limbs as a reference and sort of a front sight if I'm not mistaken. Not sure, but it should be in the older publication available online, I've posted a link to it in the "crossbow books" ...anyway I'll try to get a pic of it in here as soon as I find it. Nice topic, from the words of my crossbow fascinated friends - scopes are already becoming a cliche

Oh and the sight you showed can be seen being used at Gubio Crossbow Festival...>>>Link

Also forgot...try asking Mr SAM about the sights in the Medieval Crossbow Pictures topic found in the gallery...he is the man at digging in the archives and posting pictures/info of medieval stuff...he will most certainly give you a full bodied answer.

I think he is having some difficulties with the language barrier, and thus has limited it to that topic....could be a good thing thou, as he gives a very thorough answer supplied with pictures and sometimes even CAD diagrams from which accurate reproductions can be made, so I highly recommend his expertise.

Geezer here, with my two-bits worth. Outside the standing peep and aperture sights used on the big bows at Gubbio and San Marino, most of the sights I have seen on ancient crossbows are folding rear-sights. The foresight is indeed the end of the bolt. If your bolts are all the same size and have the same sort of point, that works well enough at shorter ranges.
The sights normally fold on recoil, which is a good thing, because the sort of bows that had sights fitted required some kind of spanning-device, either a cranequin,gafa, or belt-hook, and most of those would require the sight to be down for spanning anyhow. Usually the folding sights have multiple peep-holes or a 'V' notched plate that can be adjusted via set-screws up/down and a little bit right and left. (Generally windage is more easily adjusted by inclining your bow-limbs the way you want your shots to go anyway... what they used to call 'Kentucky windage'.
Egon Harmuth shows something called a 'diopter' sight, consisting of small rings set into the side of the stock. Looking through the correct ring and sighting on a spot on the inside surface of the prod allowed the shooter to get the correct elevation for a specific range. Then he sighted over the bolt's point for the shot. Weird, but it oughta work.
Some 19th century Belgian target bows have a long lever on the fore end, sloping just below the bolt's flight. They put a simple blade-foresight on the end of the lever. That oughta work nicely for longer shots, and the principle should work for modern sporting bows as well. If the lever is strongly made, it shouldn't get knocked outa line anyhow.
Geezer

The beautiful crossbow shown on the The Arbalist Guild title block (above) appears to have a fold-out diopter sight mounted on the side of the tiller.

Hi Y'all,
First of all thanks Ivo for the improvements to the Forum. Now if I can only figure out how to post pictures I'll be even happier.
Meanwhile let's carry on about sighting a medieval type crossbow.
I find that I have to hold under my target by a considerable amount at short and ethical hunting distances. The method of sighting from the thumb knuckle or top of the bolt clip and the arrow head is one I use. But this method naturally elevates the front of the barrel (deck) and thus the beginning of trajectory. The sighting plane also varies with the length of arrow.
Fire away, or should that be release away?
Pavise

Shooting medieval crossbows: There are two ways to do it. Either place the end of the tiller atop your shoulder (or atop your clavicle against the top of your trapezius muscle) for a solid anchor at shorter ranges.
for longer ranges, hold the butt alongside your cheek... as if you were drawing an arrow to your ear. This second method, (called 'freehand' ) allows the shooter to sight over the bolt's point and lower the butt to achieve the correct elevation without losing sight-picture. It isn't as stable as shooting from the shoulder, but will prevent your losing your target when you elevate for range.
Geezer.

Geezer,
The first thing I did before posting my original message was refer to your book and look for some answers. The reason I did this is because some of your customers have written to say how accurate your medieval type crossbows are.
I know how to hold my crossbows but no matter what hold I choose: If I line my thumb, or clip, up with the arrow head, this elevates the barrel too much for a 20 or 30 yards target. Thus I have to "hold under" by a significant amount or the arrow will sail over the top. I am convinced that targets of old were at much greater distances or indeed flock shooting at the enemy was more the order of the day. Sporting crossbows invariable had, or have, a more sophisticated sighting arrangement in order to alleviate the problem.
No worries. I'll figure it out with a large enough target board to determine the arc of trajectory over various distances.
Pavise

The folding sight and trigger on the German target crossbow(forum header image) was only made folding to allow the use of cranequen. Since the loop used to hold the cranequen in place needed to slide on the stock, both the trigger and sight had to be folded down.

I tell you these German crossbows are full of weird stuff...I've even heard such brave statements that Germans designed these crossbows as a fashion statement and not so much out of pursuing efficiency of it's function...tiny draw length had to be made up for with an extremely powerful prod that in it's turn required a complex trigger mechanism to gain some mechanical advantage and reduce the trigger pull to a usable degree....and the whole reloading procedure was a joke in a sense that the more operations you performed and the more times you cranked the handle of the cranequen to reload the beast...the cooler you were. ...still...despite these brave and possibly "true" statements, these crossbows are going to continue to amaze the better part of the crossbow world.

Ivo

I've seen some videos of italian reenactment tournaments where crossbows have the kind of sighting Todd mentioned and reading some info I learned that the front shield wise point is fixed and the rear spike is a moving point but just for elevation. For windage where no sight used but the point of the bolt. I think in medieval combat scenarios arbalest men had little or no time to sight the enemy... they teach their senses to shoot spontaneusly as a bodily reflex... or they were nailed down...
I used to mount a red dot sight in my medieval crossbow replica, but I let that better for my rifles... with crossbow is more fun to me to teach my senses as the oldest did... sight free
Enjoy your weapon and regards!

Luis Diethelm wrote:I've seen some videos of italian reenactment tournaments where crossbows have the kind of sighting Todd mentioned and reading some info I learned that the front shield wise point is fixed and the rear spike is a moving point but just for elevation. For windage where no sight used but the point of the bolt.  I think in medieval combat scenarios arbalest men had little or no time to sight the enemy... they teach their senses to shoot spontaneusly as a bodily reflex... or they were nailed down...
I used to mount a red dot sight in my medieval crossbow replica, but I let that better for my rifles... with crossbow is more fun to me to teach my senses as the oldest did... sight free
Enjoy your weapon and regards!

After viewing many videos and searching through theBalestrieri tournament websites I am convinced those crossbows don’t use sights as we are familiar with. The rear post with the one or two apertures is strictly a viewfinder for establishing eye position from the reference points on front side of the tiller. The small markers are possibly the head of tacks
embedded in soft material at the time of sighting in. These items can then be re-positioned or supplemented on the card in the direction and amount to zero in. The bolts themselves have a small tack or line drawn on them near the front to sight the target. During sighting in the crossbowman can view both windage and elevation references when his eye is only at one location near the rear of the tiller. Why do they do it this way, centuries of
tradition, or exclusivism?
 The image below shows the key items just before the final eye positioning.

Sep




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMI-Syen34U&feature=related

Not that i have any real knowledge but i havend found any sights on any of the medieval crossbows in the royal netherlands army museum. And they do have a fine collection! Only the younger 19th century target bows have sights and they are far from medieval. occasionally u see holes in the tiller but they seem to be resetting holes for the trigger mechanism. One bow does appear strange to me because is see something of a button push thingie behind the nut. Its inv.nr 12778 for those of u who might have the book by senfelder. Idont have it so i cant say for sure what they are. Maybe for ur thumb? Knuckle aim?

Geezer here, weighing in on medieval/Renaissance sights. Local Rich-guy and collector Richard Garriott, here in Austin, Tex. has a crossbow in his collection dated 1592, which is fitted with a folding rear sight. This bow has seen some modification over the years, but the sight seems consistent with others I've seen dated about the same time. I've got lots of pics of this bow on my website... If you're interested, take a look. http://www.crossbows.net/CuMine/thumbnails.php?album=17&page=5 other pages of this section show more of the sight. Geezer

great pictures! Thanks! I guess the best items are in private collections! I'll be making i sight for my bow now.

Yes, great pictures! Just as Ferdi said, you don't see many pictures of sights on medieval crossbows. Was sights only used for sporting bows, or did the munition grade war bows have them as well?

jds6

Outside the weird things on the big Italian siege bows, as mentioned above, I've only seen sights on Renaissance sporting bows... after @ 1500.
I have seen documentary evidence of sights on longbows... they were outlawed in England in the 15th century, at least for use on Peasant military-type bows. You don't pass a law against something nobody does, so I'll wager there were some sights on both longbows and crossbows in the earlier periods, but I have no idea what those might look like. Geezer

I have thought about this to "death", I am just going to add a peep (brass strip with a single hole) that is just over the nut and holder....all of my bolts are the exact same length....I then look thru the peep...using the tip of the arrow...and then practice, practice, practice and use KY windage. Since I am hunting exclusively with my crossbow this fall....it will be fine out to 40 yards with a bit of practice! Even small game...and sitting birds!

The single hole and peep will give me the same shot-to-shot eye placement.

Maybe quit thinking and just shoot? (not saying that as a jerk though!!)

If i may add a suggestion Stonedogg?
Not to be a smartass offcourse.
U say u want to hunt with ur bow, it might be a good idea to make ur sight adjustable to the left and right to be able to ''tune'' it under ideal conditions. I made a sight with a vertical groove. if u knw it shoots straight u only have to test the range of the bottem and top of the groove and thats that! Then u are only left with adjusting for wind by 'feel', i u still follow what i am trying to say?!
Anyway, like i said, just a suggestion.

Greetings all,
I find this topic very interesting! As said in earlier post, sights were used mainly on sporting bows. I have read that notches were place on the bow (two or three) where you could place the thumb. Then by using the thumb and end of the bolt it acts as a sight. Does anyone have insight on this procedure, and how it was actually done?

jds6