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    Royal Dutch Army Museum.

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    Post by ferdinand on Wed May 09, 2012 12:56 pm

    Great collection of medieval and Renaissance bows up to late 19th century.
    Also very big collection of swords, armour, pikes and cannons and guns.
    Posting foto's here soon.
    Requests? Ask if ur looking for anything specifyk and maybe i have it.
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    Post by mac on Wed May 09, 2012 2:01 pm

    Ferdi,

    Have you got any good views of what is left of the bindings of inv. no. 11464 ? That's Sensfelder's cat. no. 19.

    Sensfelder's pics are great, but more would be better.

    Thanks,
    Mac
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    Post by ferdinand on Wed May 09, 2012 3:49 pm

    mac wrote:Ferdi,

    Have you got any good views of what is left of the bindings of inv. no. 11464 ? That's Sensfelder's cat. no. 19.

    Sensfelder's pics are great, but more would be better.

    Thanks,
    Mac
    I havent got an inventory list, what object are we talking about? Is that s harness ?
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    Post by ferdinand on Thu May 10, 2012 5:31 am

    Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3094Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3062Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3061Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3061Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3093Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3091Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_2980Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_2981Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_2982Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_2983Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_2985Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_2986Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_2987Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3088Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3089Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3090Damn lucky i took pictures of all nameplates!! Here goes what i have Mac my man! And as a little bonus the Pavese with saint Joris and the dragon and the bolts.Shocked

    Is this helping? sorry for the bad quality pics, lighting was bad an flash whas not allowed.

    Look me up on photobucket, u can get more detail probably, album is public.
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    Post by ferdinand on Thu May 10, 2012 6:06 am

    Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3053Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3054Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3055Royal Dutch Army Museum. DSC_3056and this is one of my favorites inv.no 12012 german schnepper dated 1725.

    Look at that metalwork, isnt that just great! Couldnt get a look on the bottomsude unfortunatly, anyone have the book on the Royal Dutch Museum? any pictures there maybe?

    I am open to more requests.
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    Post by mac on Thu May 10, 2012 8:03 am

    Firdi.

    Yes, that's the one. Thank you!

    Here is the view of the underside from Sensfelder. It seems to me that the heavy iron plates are a late but perhaps working life modification. Perhaps the lock was heavily modified, and the plates represent the easiest solution to the problem of stabilizing the axles in their new locations. In any case, Sensfelder says the screws are metric, and probably date from the late 19thC.

    Sensfelder does not give any description of the lock except to say that it is apparently a typical 4 axle lock with a set trigger.
    Royal Dutch Army Museum. Inv11911The trigger (in its folded position) can be seen over on the left.

    Mac
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    Post by ferdinand on Thu May 10, 2012 8:20 am

    Thanks for that picture! This will most certainly be thr lock for my next build!
    Is there perhaps a picture of a 4 axel lock u could share?
    Always nice to help eachother out!
    Did u get any new insight on those bindings?
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    Post by mac on Thu May 10, 2012 8:39 am

    Here is Sansfelder's diagram for a generic diagram for a 4 axle lock and set trigger.

    I feel that this is about all that I can post from a book that is currently in print. It's an essential book, and everyone should buy a copy while it is still available.

    Mac

    Royal Dutch Army Museum. Inv11912
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    Post by mac on Thu May 10, 2012 8:41 am

    ferdinand wrote:
    Did u get any new insight on those bindings?

    Every view helps!

    Mac
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    Post by ferdinand on Thu May 10, 2012 9:39 am

    mac wrote:Here is Sansfelder's diagram for a generic diagram for a 4 axle lock and set trigger.

    I feel that this is about all that I can post from a book that is currently in print. It's an essential book, and everyone should buy a copy while it is still available.

    Mac

    Royal Dutch Army Museum. Inv11912

    thanks for that! Incredible how complex it actually is! hard to imagine how it works without any extra springs in the mechanism. Dunno if i will make it that diffycult but then again, maybe i will!
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    Post by mac on Thu May 10, 2012 11:05 am

    ferdinand wrote:

    Royal Dutch Army Museum. Inv11912

    thanks for that! Incredible how complex it actually is! hard to imagine how it works without any extra springs in the mechanism. Dunno if i will make it that diffycult but then again, maybe i will!

    Think it through carefully. There are no springs needed in the main part of the lock, because it gets its energy from the bow.

    Rotation of the nut caused #6 to roll back unless it it held by #9. The locking face on #9 is inclined slightly (not well drawn here) so it will act as ramp, and allow #6 to escape unless it is restrained by # 11. The locking face of #11 is also an inclined plane, and it too will rotate unless it is blocked by #13. The interaction between #11 and #13 is the only place in the main lock that is stable. It takes a "kick" from the hair trigger mechanism's #15 to dislodge it.

    The spring (#18) in the set trigger lock does dual duty. It supplies the "kick" to the main lock with one arm, and with the other it makes sure that the trigger returns to the ready position when the set trigger is set.

    I love these complicated locks. they're all about using inclined planes and levers to reduce the force exerted by the bow to a point where it can be held by a delicate trigger.

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    Post by mac on Fri May 11, 2012 9:07 pm

    Ferdi,

    Check your mail box.

    Mac
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    Post by ferdinand on Fri May 11, 2012 9:42 pm

    mac wrote:Ferdi,

    Check your mail box.

    Mac
    Thanks!
    Received the pictures.
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    Post by Basilisk120 on Fri May 11, 2012 11:17 pm

    Hey, thanks for the pics those are great. If I ever make it to the Netherlands to visit family I'll make it a point to check that place out.



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    Post by Ivo on Wed May 16, 2012 7:00 pm

    Mac, Ferdi,

    I was exploring that trigger recently and came face to face with a very strange bit.

    The lever (part #9) and lever (part #11) behave very strangely with #11 moving in the direction opposite of the expected. It basically jams. I tried moving the axels of the two parts to try and narrow down the issue, but to not much luck. Have you experienced anything like this?

    Ivo



    Royal Dutch Army Museum. Untitled
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    Post by ferdinand on Thu May 17, 2012 1:50 am

    Ivo wrote:Mac, Ferdi,

    I was exploring that trigger recently and came face to face with a very strange bit.

    The lever (part #9) and lever (part #11) behave very strangely with #11 moving in the direction opposite of the expected. It basically jams. I tried moving the axels of the two parts to try and narrow down the issue, but to not much luck. Have you experienced anything like this?

    Ivo
    Sorry Ivo, havent tried to build that trigger assembly yet!
    But if i make a analyses of it i would say that number 11 must have a flaw in the angle of the surface with wich it touches 9.
    Any pictures of ur assembly?
    Might help to see it.
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    Post by Ivo on Thu May 17, 2012 8:42 pm

    My model is an exact copy of the one in the illustration above. I made a cad assembly and ran the simulation on the computer. Was planing on making a study model once I have it figured out on the comp, but something is wrong there, so here I am.

    My guess is same as yours. I think it's either the receiving angle that was undershot or the tip of the lever #9 is and doesn't reach far enough past the center of #11's axel. Perhaps that's it... scratch drunken

    By the way, you had a question about resetting this trig and Mac did an excellent job at explaining it...also there is a cool video of the internals and the whole operation. Man, that guy... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    http://thearbalistguild.forumotion.com/t264-crossbow-video#3866



    Ivo

    PS: Big thanks for posting all the pictures, and Mac for bringing up that metal cased bow. Really cool stuff! drunken Very Happy



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    Post by mac on Fri May 18, 2012 6:23 am

    Ivo,

    I have never built one of these, but I thought I understood them.

    Can you show us your CAD simulation?

    Mac
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    Post by ferdinand on Fri May 18, 2012 8:29 am

    Ivo wrote:My model is an exact copy of the one in the illustration above. I made a cad assembly and ran the simulation on the computer. Was planing on making a study model once I have it figured out on the comp, but something is wrong there, so here I am.

    My guess is same as yours. I think it's either the receiving angle that was undershot or the tip of the lever #9 is and doesn't reach far enough past the center of #11's axel. Perhaps that's it... scratch drunken

    By the way, you had a question about resetting this trig and Mac did an excellent job at explaining it...also there is a cool video of the internals and the whole operation. Man, that guy... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    http://thearbalistguild.forumotion.com/t264-crossbow-video#3866

    Thanks Ivo! Incredible how complex it is! I love it!
    Great movie.



    Ivo

    PS: Big thanks for posting all the pictures, and Mac for bringing up that metal cased bow. Really cool stuff! drunken Very Happy
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    Post by mac on Fri May 18, 2012 6:50 pm

    Ivo,

    I just had another look at it. As it is drawn, forward face of lever #11 falls nearly tangent to the arc that the tail of # 9 describes. If you incline the face of #11 a couple of degrees, I think everything will be fine.

    Mac
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    Post by Ivo on Sun May 20, 2012 1:20 am

    Mac, you are absolutely right. I mean...not a surprise, you're Mac. Very Happy Royal Dutch Army Museum. 603243 Royal Dutch Army Museum. 524936

    As for me...I think there is a story you might enjoy... Laughing

    I went back to the model I had on the computer and went into material properties...aaaand my jaw dropped.

    I use two programs, one to get teh outline from the original drawing and then export the line drawing to another app that converts them into solid objects and runs a cycle.

    So when I went into the properties, I realized that I was exporting model that had millimeters for units of measure, and importing it into another app where the preset is Meters. Thus, what was millimeters turned into meters and lever #9 measured around 560m in length (with steel as a material it weighed in around 100,000kg) Shocked Embarassed Royal Dutch Army Museum. 576186 Lever #11 was just moving in the opposite direction due the shear weight of it's longer arm. Embarassed Laughing

    This is a little embarrassing and I hope you forgive me for throwing things off track like this, but this definitely goes as compliment to the traditional C(arbdoard). A(ided). D(esign). armed with compasses/protractors and all that good stuff. Smile

    On with remaking the 3d sketch with proper values set, putting into account the bit about the interaction specifics of #9-#11 and I'll be back with a working simulation hopefully.I kinda like that there is some precision involved there, and perhaps that is what the illustrator was so enthusiastic about, but happened to slightly overshoot it. Mehhh, happens to the best of us. Lesson learned. Smile

    Also, in that video, the parts look like they have been reduced quite a bit. That's the next step. Royal Dutch Army Museum. 204712

    Thanks,

    Ivo



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    Post by mac on Sun May 20, 2012 1:49 pm

    Ivo wrote:


    So when I went into the properties, I realized that I was exporting model that had millimeters for units of measure, and importing it into another app where the preset is Meters. Thus, what was millimeters turned into meters and lever #9 measured around 560m in length (with steel as a material it weighed in around 100,000kg) Shocked Embarassed Royal Dutch Army Museum. 576186 Lever #11 was just moving in the opposite direction due the shear weight of it's longer arm. Embarassed Laughing

    That's a BIG crossbow, Ivo. Leonardo's got nothin' on you!

    Mac

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