Now I'd love to make my next two bows powerful enough to need a cranequin, but having seen the prices for cranequins I am going to have to pass. Simply far too expensive. So, I'm thinking of making these two bows powerful enough to need a goats foot lever to span them and thus doing away with the ugly stirrup which wouldn't look appropriate on these two bows anyway. I have the Ralph Payne Gallway crossbow book and I see in there he does provide some measurements and a plan of sorts for creating a goats foot. Is this something I'm going to need to go to a metal worker to get made? Also, from something I read somewhere I recall the goats foot needs to be made to match the bow. So, if I make these two bows so they use the same weight of prod and have the pins located at the same point on the tiller will I be able to use one goats foot for both bows? Finally, what sort of steel stock would you use for this - cold rolled?

I see no reason why one goat's foot would not work on both crossbows as you have described; as long as the deck/stock width is similar on both crossbows. And I would at least use cold-rolled MS for material. Hot-rolled is simply too much work (scale removal) as far as finishing off and is not as strong as good, cold-rolled bar-stock is. The arms and levers on your goat's foot need to be wide enough in cross-section to resist bending. The ones we see in books etc., are tapered in their side section to make them progressively stronger towards the hinge point as well as for a pleasing and balanced appearance. The effort and load being applied to the device increases as the string is pulled back further and the mechanical advantage of the goat's foot is employed. The pins on the stock need to be smooth and round and the inside curved working part of the goat's foot arms must be super smooth and evenly matched too. An alternative devise is the simple steel cocking lever that pushes, rather than pulls the string into the latch. It all rather depends on the draw-weight of your prods.

Hope this helps.

Pavise

Pavise,

After talking with Jim at Alchem, I'm planning on using their 1316 prods which range from 120 - 140#. These bows will be for target shooting exclusively. I want to have a reasonably flat trajectory out to 40 yards or so and I believe I can get that with a prod in this range. Do you think a simple wooden lever such as the "whippe" described in the Payne-Gallway book would be effective enough to span a prod of this weight? As I recall that lever design was one that would push the skein into place and was typically made from some type of dense hard wood. A fairly simple design but on that would work fairly effectively to span a prod of a weight to strong to effectively span without some sort of tool but not so heavy you'd need something like a cranequin. Opinions?

Hi kiltedcelt,

I have a few examples of what you are talking about here in the "Levers, cranks, and other spanning devices" topic. Under the lever pictures I also added some charts and a terrible explanation of how they work

Not here to drive off topic, but 120-140lb isn't really a heavy crossbow that "requires" a spanning lever. A rope cocking aid can be used just as easily and the beauty is this...it can be successfully used with those pins on the side of the stock with out any modifications. Just a thought.

Geezer here with observations on cocking levers.
In my experience, most shooters end up going with the simplest cocking system available. A medieval belt-hook or cord and pulley spanner is much lighter and less trouble to tote around than any sort of lever, and in fact, any sort of spanning aid is usually more trouble than simply spanning by hand if the power of your bow will allow. So you may well end up making a cocking device and leaving it at home when you go out to shoot.
As far as 'wippe' and 'gafa' levers are concerned, the great advantage in making wippe levers is that they don't generally require advanced metal-working skills, whereas making a gafa pretty much needs the help of a real smith. Wippes generally give you less mechanical advantage than a gafa (goatsfoot) lever, and the wippe is usually a but clumsier to use than a properly constructed gafa. On the positive side, since a wippe pushes from the front, rather than drawing the string from behind the lock, the wippe usually doesn't get involved with a rear sight mounted above and behind the lock.
In most respects, I think the gafa is a vastly superior spanning machine, but expense and details of its use can tilt a shooter toward the wippe.
As far as cranequins are concerned, they're wonderful machines, but quite slow to use and again, they get right in the way of your rear-sight, which is the primary reason that Renaissance rear-sights are invariably designed to fold up between shots. Geezer

Hi kiltedcelt,

Now that you have indicated the weight of your prods I completely agree with Ivo and Geezer and suggest that you try one of the simple cocking devices. I am familiar with Jim's 1316 prod and if you are strong enough, they are not impossible to cock entirely by hand. Very many manufactured crossbows are suppled with solid fibreglass prods in the order of 150 lbs and no cocking device is furnished with them that I know of.

There is one rope type (Nylon cord) model out there now, which has vertical rollers on the side of the Delrin hooks to prevent galling of the stock as they are drawn along each side into the cocked position. I use the original one sold by Excalibur and find it very convenient in every respect. And I make my stocks to suit their application. The KISS (Keep It Super Simple) principal is always one I try to adhere to.

Geezer and others have used the correct terminology for so many parts that I think it is time that we had a Glossary reference on this wonderful Forum that we can all agree upon and then learn and use. I have been a bit reluctant to use some of these dedicated terms and names for fear of unwittingly writing over some heads.

Pavise

The one issue I'd have with trying to manually span one of these crossbows is that I'm hoping to build something like this:





In both cases, neither bow has a stirrup in place. I'm pretty sure I could very easily span a 150# prod if I had a stirrup, however without a stirrup having to span the bow by holding the butt of the stock against myself I can see getting quite uncomfortable. I've seen a few guys at SCA event with crossbows that have a large pin through the stock aft of the lock such as would be used for a gaffa. These guys span those bows by holding it butt end down and hooking their thumbs over the skein and then putting their fingers around the pin. They use the pin as an anchor and pull the skein into position that way. Seems somewhat awkward and potentially unsafe to span a crossbow with the business end pointing towards you, even if its unloaded. Belt hooks or variations thereof seem to require the use of a stirrup. Something more elaborate using cords and pulleys could work I suppose but again as was mentioned, it seems to be overkill for a 150# prod. On another note, I know I could span the bow by holding it against the ground with my feet resting on the prod on either side of the tiller. The only issue here is getting the prod all covered in mud as can often be the case at many an SCA event. I suppose I could always put a towel down to protect the prod. I'm also hesitant to put my feet on the prod because I'm hoping to duplicate the intricate decorative carving on the prod as you can faintly see in the upper crossbow. I won't actually carve the prod but will instead try to use some sort of paint/ink/transfer media of some sort to achieve the look of the incised decoration. Finally, I know from shooting my other bow and spanning that prod a few dozen times over the course of a day that you start to feel it in your back and arms by the end of the day. I can imagine that the difference from spanning 110# versus 150# would be quite noticeable in much the same way as the draw weight difference between a 35# longbow and a 45# can feel much more different. Although there's different muscle mechanics involved in both it's not a good example I suppose. I'm just looking for the easiest least hassle way to span the prod and still be able to achieve look of the bows pictured above.

Okay. Now we know where you're coming from I can see why you have an unusual problem inasmuch as you will be spanning and shooting many times over a short period of time. Undoubtedly your body will suffer, and in some areas more than others. If it were me I would make a suitable leather pad to be worn at my midrif where the butt end of my stock would be when spanning by hand. When I shot with Robin and others years ago in England we often used such a pad and many of us could regularly hand span 200 lbs Dural prods doing it this way. But then we were young, very fit, and practiced at it too.

Since you will not have an integral stirrup at your disposal, but perhaps a small ring, why don't you make an attachment for your boot that has a small hook on it? This could be in the form of a leather strap/stirrup that would make it then possible to use a belt hook or other convenient spanning device.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Pavise

Geezer here:
Kiltedcelt, the bows you're lusting after are powerful pieces designed to use a cranequin for spanning. That's why they have only tiny rings suitable for hanging from the wall or a saddle. Spanish bows with tiny rings normally use the 'gafa' or 'goatsfoot' cocking lever. Medieval and Renaissance bows intended for spanning by hand or with the belt-hook used stirrups.
So you have a dilemma: Either you can fit your replica with a stirrup you can actually use for spanning or use a ring. If you use the ring, you're gonna need a spanning machine. That's life in the slow-lane, I'm afraid. Gafas will be cheaper, and it should be possible to get one made to fit your bow. I recommend contacting my old friends at Darkwood Armory (they make some of my steel prods). Darkwood is now making gafas at a reasonable price and they could probably be talked into making a special one for a wider stock. A websearch will find their address in a hurry.
As an alternative, you might talk to Alchem Corp... they're contributors to this discussion group and their work is good. I don't know if they're considering making gafas, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. Geezer.

Geezer,

In talking with Jim at Alchem and the earlier comments of Pavise on this thread, I had decided to keep the prod weight down around 150#max which is the upper range for the 1316 prod that Alchem makes. Both of them agree that weight is good enough for most target shooting and can still be spanned by hand. I think it was Pavise that mentioned using a thick leather pad suspended from a belt or something to brace the butt end of the stock against while spanning by hand. I was also thinking that I could make a wippe that would be designed to use the hanging ring bound to the front of the stock as the hooking point for the lever so I would have a mechanical aid to help in spanning should my arms begin to tire out or my midriff begin to complain in spite of the leather pad. Thcese two bows will obviously have some compromises in construction, the most obvious being not having a 250#+ prod that would necessitate spanning with a cranequin as the originals clearly would've used. Even if I were to go that route, I'd find quickly that I'd be losing bolts inside of targets or they'd be flying right on through and going missing in a muddy field. Since I can only shoot these bows at SCA events I'm limited in what sort of targets are available. Common targets at the events I've been to are 2 1/2" thick butt foam on a stand. A really high powered crossbow is going to blow right on through those targets. So, making these is a balancing act between historical accuracy and practicality.

You have to also keep in mind that spaning something by hand(especially without a stirrup) isn't going to do well on centering the string...and you said it's for target shooting, so it will most certainly have an effect on that particular factor.

A wooden goats foot with a few metal reinforcements shouldn't be too hard to make, that way you're guaranteed an always centered string when loading and thus have improved accuracy.

Ivo,

Sounds like you're suggesting I make a wippe, which is, as I understand it, the sort-of cut-rate wooden version of the all-metal gaffe or goat's foot. I've got plenty of scrap ipe laying around and I can't imagine making a stronger more heavy duty wippe out of any other kind of wood. I was planning making a wippe for use with these bows, even if I did try spanning them by hand. With my other 110# bow I quickly found that spanning it by hand, even with the stirrup for leverage quickly be tiring over the course of a days shooting. I think even if I tried to hand span a 150# prod it would become tiring even more quickly and I'd have to resort to the wippe anyway.

I've successfully used a self-made wippe lever to cock a ~300 pound crossbow with a steel bow. My wippe is 75 cm long and the axle is located 17cm from the metal hook. The lever itself is made from pine and the shorter, pivoted part from birch. Cocking the crossbow with it is very smooth and does not require much strength. Even my wife who has trouble cocking 150 pounders by hand can do it. That said, there are a couple of challenges in making a wippe that works just right. For this reason I'll soon be adding a "Designing and making a wippe" article to my howto collection at http://users.utu.fi/sjsepp

basileus wrote:I've successfully used a self-made wippe lever to cock a ~300 pound crossbow with a steel bow. My wippe is 75 cm long and the axle is located 17cm from the metal hook. The lever itself is made from pine and the shorter, pivoted part from birch. Cocking the crossbow with it is very smooth and does not require much strength. Even my wife who has trouble cocking 150 pounders by hand can do it. That said, there are a couple of challenges in making a wippe that works just right. For this reason I'll soon be adding a "Designing and making a wippe" article to my howto collection at http://users.utu.fi/sjsepp

...and finally I had time to write something concrete about making and designing wippes. Take a look here for details.

Hey, thanks for finally posting this. I'm sure it'll come in handy should I end up going the route of making a wippe.